Took home a '67 Model 613
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  1. #1
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    Default Took home a '67 Model 613

    I've wanted something with a little bit longer bed than the 12x30 1944 CK, and found what appeared to be a good deal on a 1967 Monarch 612 16"x54". From the pictures it had rapid traverse. It also had a 20HP motor, bigger than I'd consider ideal given that I'm not looking to hog off 1/4" at a shot and need to either go VFD or RPC to power it from single phase 220V. But the price was good. 7 hour drive with a trailer to pick it up, made an overnight trip out of it. Some issues the next morning, apparently it tested out fine a couple days earlier in general operation, but under cutting load the feed started skipping. Turns out the splines/keys on the feed worm gear in the apron was worn out. They had another similar parts machine, and tried to swap the apron, but the the compound drive gears were slightly different. But otherwise the machine looked to be in reasonable shape, certainly not pristine but right for the price. So they swapped the worm gear, and while they were at it swapped the large bronze apron gear that engages the worm gear, due to wear. They got the hardware swapped and were going to go ahead and mount the apron, but I wanted to get on the road and I'm not fond of interstate driving after dark hauling a gooseneck with 30' bed. They took a substantial chunk off the price for my inconvenience and for the incomplete reassembly. Certainly from my perspective the made it right by me. Obviously a shop that understands that their reputation matters.
    img_3223.jpg
    (The chain over the bed has an inch thick rubber mat between the chain and the bed).

    So I have a 612. I just need to unload 9000lb of machine. I'd call it a huge machine, but it was tiny compared to the working machines from this shop. It was a blast to look at their collection of old Monarchs, Pacemakers, LeBlonds, etc, still in use.
    img_3209.jpg
    Last edited by rabler; 09-11-2020 at 04:56 PM.

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    Yep, You got it! Iron rich blood
    There is no cure. It's a dirty but good clean habit.
    I'm not familiar with a 612 but I would love to drag one home.

    Are you familiar with Vintage Machinery.org.
    Here is a manual.
    www.vintagemachinery.org/pubs/detail.aspx?id=15004
    More information to choose from.
    Monarch Machine Tool Co. - Publication Reprints | VintageMachinery.org

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    Quote Originally Posted by mllud22 View Post
    Yep, You got it! Iron rich blood
    There is no cure. It's a dirty but good clean habit.
    I'm not familiar with a 612 but I would love to drag one home.

    Are you familiar with Vintage Machinery.org.
    Here is a manual.
    www.vintagemachinery.org/pubs/detail.aspx?id=15004
    More information to choose from.
    www.vintagemachinery.org/pubs/detail.aspx?id=15004
    I'm feeling like a kid at Christmas with a new toy.

    Keith Rucker & Vintage Machinery.org are on my youtube subscription list. Which is a pretty high bar given the limited Internet data quota via HughesNet.

    It's going to get set up in the other shop, so I'm leaning toward a 7.5HP motor & VFD rather than an RPC. It's still on the trailer for now, but under a covered bay. Going to see if one of the local farmers has a excavator or tractor capable of lifting it, mine max out at around 5000lbs.

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    For a 16" that compound rest looks really thick, plus sitting kind of tall. Could be me, or pic vantage point though.

    I'll be looking forward to a lengthy, pic heavy thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    For a 16" that compound rest looks really thick, plus sitting kind of tall. Could be me, or pic vantage point though.

    I'll be looking forward to a lengthy, pic heavy thread.
    Good catch. You are correct. It is a model 612-2516. So a 25” swing, 16” over criss slide from a vintagemachinery.org 1959 general catalog. I was focused on the 54” between centers, and knowing that the 612 in general is considered a very serious machine. That general catalog shows the older version of the 612 with the motor sitting outboard of the headstock rather than under it, but also lists the base version as a 48” between centers machine. Tomorrow I should have a better chance to see exactly what I got.

    This machine also originally had an “electronic-gage tracer”. The tracer mechanism is gone, which I was aware of before going to look at the machine. But the cross slide still has the electric motor and transmission on back to operate the cross slide. Given a DRO with computer readable outputs it might even be possible to do something with that.

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    Pull the 20 hp motor out and use it with a control box to make a RPC to run the 7 1/2 motor you want to put in its place. A pre made RPC box might be $450-$500? The other benefit of this is if you sell the machine later to someone who has need of 20 hp you still have the motor in running condition, since it is used regularly.

    Congrats on a nice lathe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    Pull the 20 hp motor out and use it with a control box to make a RPC to run the 7 1/2 motor you want to put in its place. A pre made RPC box might be $450-$500? The other benefit of this is if you sell the machine later to someone who has need of 20 hp you still have the motor in running condition, since it is used regularly.

    Congrats on a nice lathe
    Good idea, I like this plan.

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    So, a little more to this story. It was advertised as a 16" x 54" 1967 612. The typical Monarch tag wasn't present, but this tag was pictured:
    img_3229.jpg
    It's not quite the standard Monarch plate that I've seen, i.e., no info on swing and distance between centers.

    The shop I got it from had bought out a smaller machine shop going out of business, with two Monarch 612's included. They wanted one as a parts machine as they have a 612 with maybe a 12' bed, but told me they really wanted the misc tooling. There was a nice hydraulic feed Browne & Sharpes surface grinder they were willing to sell me. While my trailer had room and might haul the weight (11 ton rated), I figured with 8000lbs for the truck, 7000lbs for the trailer, and 10000lbs for the lathe I was close enough hitting 26000 lbs that I didn't want to chance it as I don't have a CDL. I normally use the trailer for hauling hay, Indiana allows ag loads over 26000lbs w/o any special licensing.

    The shop veterans, not being internet savvy, asked one of the newer employees to post it. He had posted a picture of the data plate above, but wasn't involved in the repair of machines so I don't think he spent too much time listing it for sale, likely he did it from home on his own time. It did show pictures of a Monarch manual per serial number.

    Looking through the literature, the machine is definitely a 612-2516, originally purchased under DoD contract by Litton Power Transmission Division in Chicago IL. The original acquisition cost was $33,030. In 1971 it was stored (lots of documentation on complying with DoD storage procedures) with an estimated 8000hrs of use. A February '75 DoD property record indicates that the tailstock conveyor is missing (and still is), and indicates it was prepped for shipping on a skid. A 1977 job order shows $8219.94 was spent testing the machine per DoD standardsand replacing filters, etc. A 1978 order shows additional work including "flake and stone cross slide ways" and a replacement cost (machine value) of $64,408.50.

    Gap in the paperwork, then in the 2003-2007 timeframe it was owned by Regal Diamond Products in Wickcliffe, Oh.

    So I ended up with a 2516T x 48" when I thought I was getting a 1610 x 54". Given my cost including fuel and hotel was less than 1/10th the original cost, guess I can live with that It is the toolroom version: threading dial and leadscrew, power rapid traverse and threading reverse on the apron. Three jaw chuck but no tooling or steady rest. Not pictured but it did include a 4-way toolpost, which alone weighs at least 50lbs.

    Here are a few more pictures since texasgunsmith asked. That is a standard size Rustoleum spray can on the compound for scale.
    img_3231.jpgimg_3233.jpgimg_3224.jpgimg_3230.jpg
    Last edited by rabler; 09-12-2020 at 09:45 PM.

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    Great little back story, nice find on the paper work. Love the military badge. I wonder how that gauge reads load%, measuring amp draw from motor I wonder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    Great little back story, nice find on the paper work. Love the military badge. I wonder how that gauge reads load%, measuring amp draw from motor I wonder.
    Yes, amp draw on one of the three legs into the motor. Documents include full size schematics. Since it is currently wired 440v, replacing the 20HP motor with a 220v 10HP motor would give me close to the same scale. I think this is the current sense transformer for the loadmeter in the lower center
    7513e6ea-cf75-41b5-8c25-6d5f23771529.jpg
    if so changing the wraps through the frame would also work to adjust the sensitivity.

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    I few more pics
    img_3235.jpg Toolpost vs. 20oz coke bottle.
    img_3239.jpg Electrical cabinet
    img_3247.jpg Motor housing, note bent tensioning bolt.
    img_3248.jpg Hydraulic tank and pump.
    img_3254.jpg Apron
    Last edited by rabler; 09-13-2020 at 10:20 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabler View Post
    I few more pics
    Attachment 299194 Toolpost vs. 20oz coke bottle.
    Attachment 299195 Electrical cabinet
    Attachment 299196 Motor housing, note bent tensioning bolt.
    Attachment 299197 Hydraulic tank and pump.
    Attachment 299198 Coolant pump, currently disconnected.
    I think something is wrong with the attachments, we can't see them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabler View Post
    Good idea, I like this plan.
    7.5 HP will do the do, but a 20 HP re-purposed as idler should start and run a 10 HP OK, too.

    10 HP might be closer as far as fit, and they can be had cheaply, easily, and even close enough for a go-fetch or at least far lesser freight than I have to pay, here.

    I'll email you a couple I have been watching at my usual source for NOS motors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    7.5 HP will do the do, but a 20 HP re-purposed as idler should start and run a 10 HP OK, too.

    10 HP might be closer as far as fit, and they can be had cheaply, easily, and even close enough for a go-fetch or at least far lesser freight than I have to pay, here.

    I'll email you a couple I have been watching at my usual source for NOS motors.
    Yes, I'm leaning toward 10HP. The current motor is a 256 frame with a 1 5/8" shaft diameter, 1800RPM (17xx). Looks like I'll have to turn and broach a sleeve for the pulley on any smaller frame, as well as fab an adapter plate.

    Looks like the contactors in the electrical box will work fine with 220V 10HP as well as the accessory motors, and the step-down control circuit transformer will do 220-120V. I just need to pull the heater off the starter/contactor and see if I can find equivalent Westinghouse parts for a 220V conversion to avoid having to put in totally new starter/contactors.

    Although the next step is to get the thing unloaded and moved into the other shop. Tailstock, carriage, chuck, chip pan and motor come out first since they're coming out anyway and/or easy enough to remove.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabler View Post
    Yes, I'm leaning toward 10HP. The current motor is a 256 frame with a 1 5/8" shaft diameter, 1800RPM (17xx). Looks like I'll have to turn and broach a sleeve for the pulley on any smaller frame, as well as fab an adapter plate.
    Well worth scouting a NEW (old stock..) Morse, Browning, TB.Woods, or Maska Cast Iron (multi-row..) sheave made for the QD or Taperlock system. They have big bores in standard sizes ALLWAYS use a bushing. But Oy! a very USEFULL "bushing"!

    I went over to those in the 1970's - "QD" my pref - refuse to use anything ELSE, long-since. They go on and off slicker than Owl s**t, grip tightly even if no key, take care of shaft size in the bushing choice, last forever, run true, and do not wobble.

    Find the sheave, odds are I'll have a QD adapter for yah to fit.

    Out of now-obsolete habit, I have stashed them for years as they cross eBay as cheap NOS goods for a fraction of new prices (MMC carry them..) .

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabler View Post
    Yes, I'm leaning toward 10HP. The current motor is a 256 frame with a 1 5/8" shaft diameter, 1800RPM (17xx). Looks like I'll have to turn and broach a sleeve for the pulley on any smaller frame, as well as fab an adapter plate.

    Looks like the contactors in the electrical box will work fine with 220V 10HP as well as the accessory motors, and the step-down control circuit transformer will do 220-120V. I just need to pull the heater off the starter/contactor and see if I can find equivalent Westinghouse parts for a 220V conversion to avoid having to put in totally new starter/contactors.

    Although the next step is to get the thing unloaded and moved into the other shop. Tailstock, carriage, chuck, chip pan and motor come out first since they're coming out anyway and/or easy enough to remove.
    If the heater is sized for 20 HP on 480v, shouldn't it be damn close at 10hp on 240v?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ClappedOutBport View Post
    If the heater is sized for 20 HP on 480v, shouldn't it be damn close at 10hp on 240v?
    Since the current is roughly the same for the main motor, probably. I’ll want to check the specs to be sure and that will mean pulling one out since I can’t see a part number or spec. The contactor itself has a dataplate listing max 15HP at 220v so that should be fine. Interestingly the design has heater overload protection on two of the three power legs. Unless there is a short to ground that should suffice, and a ground short would hopefully be covered by the circuit breaker.

    On the other hand there is also a starter/contactor for the hydraulic/lubricant pump and the coolant pump. By faceplate both of those can be rewired to 220V. The hydraulic pump has an aux NO contact in series with the motor coil so the main motor cuts out if the lube pump quits. May be easier to just replace these with currently manufactured starters.

    But still need to unload first.

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    I’ve been mostly working on the 10 EE electronics and general cleanup, but I did get this beast unloaded. Lifted off the gooseneck trailer and pulled the trailer out from under the crane. Here is a picture of this beast hanging in the air.
    f029a8fb-9ded-454b-b300-f1f609efdba4.jpg
    Note the carriage, apron, tailstock and several panels have been removed to reduce weight and size slightly.

    The original 20HP motor has been pulled out and an RPC panel awaits being wired to it, and a NOS 10HP motor arrived this week. So I have most of the major parts, just need to buy 60ft of wire suitable for carrying 100 amps from the existing circuit panel to where I plan to put the RPC, and related wiring paraphernalia. And fab a mount so the 215TCY frame sits in the right spot as well as adapt the sheave to the smaller shaft.

    Since I’m hoping to eventually move this lathe to the other building once that building gets the 20x32 addition, I won’t put in a full three phaee panel and wiring at this time. Just connect this lathe to the RPC directly for now.

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    Quick side note for anyone else moving a 612. The large electrical panel on the back side of the headstock was held on by only one not so large screw (other than wiring and conduit). Had I known this, I would have put a strap around it while hauling it. Luckily it made the trip fine, just discovered this while messing around with the wiring and motor change.

    I ordered in a taper bushing, used that to indicate in the taper attachment appropriately on the CK, and started to set up to bore out the sheave. (The 10HP motor is 215 frame, 1 3/8" shaft vs 1 5/8" on the 256 frame 20HP). Realized I need a bit bigger/longer of a boring bar, so ordered one. Slow, but progress.
    img_3441.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabler View Post
    ... started to set up to bore out the sheave. ...
    img_3441.jpg
    Do you have a 4-jaw chuck? That might be a better choice for job, that way you can indicate the sheeve in so that your bore is concentric with the OD / belt grooves.

    Cal


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