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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by rke[pler View Post
    When I built I put in a 30x60 shop and framed in the back half for a 'clean' machine shop with HVAC.
    Same. That part is layout. metrology, fine tool storage. Gasketed 90-minute fire doors keep the crud out, so if not a "clean room" it is at least "decent" and can hold to about 65 F to 70 F year-round - half that swing if I MUST, and cheaply.

    Quote Originally Posted by rabler View Post
    I'll eventually put in a ductless mini-split. Been thinking of dividing off two rooms, one for grinding and the other as a office/inspection/clean area. Not sure yet on that.
    Grinding is a third area, but only curtains as I don't DO much of it.

    Learnt something NEW on AC this summer, though.

    Dropped in an LG "Thin Q Dual Inverter" 14 K BTU window unit from Big Box to cover an older 10 k fail, and it has cut the noise, the power bill and idled two OTHER localized 5K units I can switch OFF.

    All whilst running in auto-economizer mode, yet.

    Quiet but odd after ages of legacy AC sounds to hear the two VFD's independently adjust speed of fan and compressor to deliver what the remote's temp sensor elsewhere asks it for .... over WiFi. But I'm happy to get used to the sound of departing dollars tip-toeing rather than marching!

    May try a heat-pump version for the next need. Virginia has a decent match to those, our "winter" often mild.

    2CW

  2. #42
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    DA...wow thats serious! Is that a 1-1/4" square shank tool?

    I'm a little scared of my 61-2, I think its the most powerful machine in the shop @ 10hp.

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    I saw you post DA previous, hadn't thought too much of it till Matt mentioned it.

    You have a 25" swing, but with 16" over cross slide with the raised compound. I'm not sure without measuring, but you might be able to do a CA if you prefer. CA's are a little more manageable. You'll need two hands for the DA stuff.

    If in question, if you google Aloris DA, and CA, choose the google result that matches the Aloris website. For each tool post and tool they show dimensions. Then you can google DA-1, and Aloris CA-1, tool holders for the dimensions as well. Pretty easy to figure out tool tip height that way, verse compound to spindle centerline height.

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    I don't really use the lathes for hogging, more detail work and sometimes the smaller post works well. One can always space under with a piece of something like A2 pre-hard ground flat with a clearance hole in the center if the height is not ideal.

    I have an AXA on the -EE, a BXA on the -CK and a CXA on the 61-2. No tools currently on the -EC, its a bit of a different beast with a turret.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt_isserstedt View Post
    DA...wow thats serious! Is that a 1-1/4" square shank tool?

    I'm a little scared of my 61-2, I think its the most powerful machine in the shop @ 10hp.
    I believe a DA can hold up to 1 1/2 inch. 1 1/4" are expensive enough, 1.5" gets extremely pricey, whether you're talking about insert holders or HSS blanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith
    I saw you post DA previous, hadn't thought too much of it till Matt mentioned it.

    You have a 25" swing, but with 16" over cross slide with the raised compound. I'm not sure without measuring, but you might be able to do a CA if you prefer. CA's are a little more manageable. You'll need two hands for the DA stuff.

    If in question, if you google Aloris DA, and CA, choose the google result that matches the Aloris website. For each tool post and tool they show dimensions. Then you can google DA-1, and Aloris CA-1, tool holders for the dimensions as well. Pretty easy to figure out tool tip height that way, verse compound to spindle centerline height.
    I measured the top of compound to centerline as 2.95". That's clearly beyond a CA from what I found.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt_isserstedt View Post
    I don't really use the lathes for hogging, more detail work and sometimes the smaller post works well. One can always space under with a piece of something like A2 pre-hard ground flat with a clearance hole in the center if the height is not ideal.

    I have an AXA on the -EE, a BXA on the -CK and a CXA on the 61-2. No tools currently on the -EC, its a bit of a different beast with a turret.
    Matt,
    Sounds too familiar. I have a BXA on my CK. I hoping a BXA will work on the 10EE too, it would be helpful to be able to interchange toolholders. But my 10EE is going to take a while yet to get running. Hoping to get the 612 running in the next few months. The idea of using a CA on a riser hadn't ocurred to me, but that may be a really good solution. Until I get the new shop built the 612 really isn't easily usable, it is in a building quite a ways away from my main shop.

    I don't need to do heavy hogging, 10HP will take off metal fast enough. Those chips can get damn hot. I really was looking for a model 61 with a 54" bed. The 612 just fell into my lap, and if you read my early posts in this thread you can see I picked it up expecting a 16" swing, ended up with a 25". Can't complain on that account. Having a lathe that'll run up to 1500 RPM in that size range does make this a useful beast even for small work. I doubt I'll part with the CK but it may make it somewhat redundant.

    61-2? Is that a series 61 or a series 612? Or something different completely?

    I know the 612 came in 1610, 2013, and 2516 sizes in addition to bed length options. (Where the first two digits are swing over bed and the second two are swing over carriage). And then some of the 61's had different size options, plus raised in the sand extensions. Lots of variations!

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabler View Post

    I measured the top of compound to centerline as 2.95". That's clearly beyond a CA from what I found.
    You are right. CA tool post body is 3 5/8". Top portion of a CA-1 tool holder is like 13/16". That would put you about 1/8" to 3/16" too short at tool holder's highest adjustment.

    If you really wanted a CA, and were inclined, a 1/2" spacer plate under the CA tool post would put you a sweet spot for adjustment range.
    Tool Post:
    Super-Precision Tool Post CA

    CA-1 holder:
    Turning and Facing Holder CA-1

    Dimensions for both in 2nd pic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    You are right. CA tool post body is 3 5/8". Top portion of a CA-1 tool holder is like 13/16". That would put you about 1/8" to 3/16" too short at tool holder's highest adjustment.

    If you really wanted a CA, and were inclined, a 1/2" spacer plate under the CA tool post would put you a sweet spot for adjustment range.
    Tool Post:
    Super-Precision Tool Post CA

    CA-1 holder:
    Turning and Facing Holder CA-1

    Dimensions for both in 2nd pic.
    I’ll go with either an aloris or dorian CA sized post with a spacer. Thanks for a great idea to both of you.

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  10. #49
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    Ordered an Aloris CA. I can always revert to the monster 4-way post if I want to get crazy about rigidity.

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    Is this your only lathe rabler? If it isn't, and you have one you can share toolblocks with then you can make your spacer to the proper offset and leave all your tools on height but share them between two lathes. That's what I did for a 16" Sidney and 14" Lagun with a CXA. Of course, when I move the Sidney to my my place and start sharing CA blocks with a 20" Daewoo, then I'll need probably a small shim between the two.

    P.S. Dorian has done some stuff that makes me mad. We have a older, cheap, piston-wedge post from them. Wouldn't work right and wasn't worn. (Still had the plastic on the tag). Dad got fed up with it and was about to scrap it. I couldn't figure out how to take it apart, so I blasted the tag off, and sure enough, that's where they hid the screw. Dorian was completely unwilling to work with me. No drawings, wouldn't tell me how to take it apart, absolutely no support given. Turns out they didn't grind the wedges to the right length so it never climbed onto the fine cam, just locked up.

    I haven't heard stories like from Aloris. Just my $0.02.

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  13. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClappedOutBport View Post

    P.S. Dorian has done some stuff that makes me mad. We have a older, cheap, piston-wedge post from them. Wouldn't work right and wasn't worn. (Still had the plastic on the tag). Dad got fed up with it and was about to scrap it. I couldn't figure out how to take it apart, so I blasted the tag off, and sure enough, that's where they hid the screw. Dorian was completely unwilling to work with me. No drawings, wouldn't tell me how to take it apart, absolutely no support given. Turns out they didn't grind the wedges to the right length so it never climbed onto the fine cam, just locked up.

    I haven't heard stories like from Aloris. Just my $0.02.
    I prefer Aloris myself. And their website is the best I've found for specs and such.

    Different issue than you. I did encounter, and research found others with the same. The problem was tool holders from Aloris piston type sets. The holders dovetail dimensions for piston, were a few thou's different than wedge type. So in some cases the holder from a piston type would not slide down a wedge type.

    Talking to Aloris, basically they were hand fitting each set, is how this happened.

    Its fixable, if you come across used piston holders. Need to grind a few thou's off back side.

    I first documented in post #63 here:
    O/T Attempted repair of a frozen Aloris Too lpost

    And showed some results around post #80:
    O/T Attempted repair of a frozen Aloris Too lpost

    This problem was not 100% in all piston type holders either, but enough that a few people found it when buying used from ebay.

    To avoid the problem totally, examine pics on dovetail side. If you see a tattoo mark from a piston type, don't buy it. A used holder from a wedge type won't have that tattoo. Note the faint circle tattoo dead center:

    248.jpg

    Another FYi: I use Aloris holders, but had bought a Shars CA size holder for something I was selling. It was nice quality and fit the Aloris tool post real nice.

  14. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    I prefer Aloris myself. And their website is the best I've found for specs and such.

    Different issue than you. I did encounter, and research found others with the same. The problem was tool holders from Aloris piston type sets. The holders dovetail dimensions for piston, were a few thou's different than wedge type. So in some cases the holder from a piston type would not slide down a wedge type.

    Talking to Aloris, basically they were hand fitting each set, is how this happened.

    Its fixable, if you come across used piston holders. Need to grind a few thou's off back side.

    I first documented in post #63 here:
    O/T Attempted repair of a frozen Aloris Too lpost

    And showed some results around post #80:
    O/T Attempted repair of a frozen Aloris Too lpost
    Yes. That's the thread I was thinking of! I am fine with Shars posts. I would have bought a Shars CA but my Daewoo came with an Aloris CA and 4 holders. It's definitely a little smoother than the Shars and the holders are considerably nicer, but they function the same.

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  16. #53
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    I ordered an Aloris CA wedge with a few tool holders today. Best price I found was to go through Shars, as they carry Aloris as a direct ship from manufacturer. I do have Shars-branded posts on both my CK and my import 10x22. The CK came that way, but that toolpost sticks when I loosen the toolpost top nut to rotate the post. Very annoying. Probably a simple clean, debur and grease needed. Just need to get around to it. I’ll probably try Shars for additional toolholders, $40 vs $99 for Aloris.

    Quote Originally Posted by ClappedOutBport
    Is this your only lathe rabler? If it isn't, and you have one you can share toolblocks with then you can make your spacer to the proper offset and leave all your tools on height but share them between two lathes. That's what I did for a 16" Sidney and 14" Lagun with a CXA. Of course, when I move the Sidney to my my place and start sharing CA blocks with a 20" Daewoo, then I'll need probably a small shim between the two.
    Three other lathes, but none anywhere near CA size, 12” with BXA being the next biggest. Sharing between the CK and 10EE that fashion would make sense.

  17. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabler View Post
    Matt,
    61-2? Is that a series 61 or a series 612? Or something different completely?

    I know the 612 came in 1610, 2013, and 2516 sizes in addition to bed length options. (Where the first two digits are swing over bed and the second two are swing over carriage). And then some of the 61's had different size options, plus raised in the sand extensions. Lots of variations!
    My 61-2 is a self-concocted naming sequence but here's why....

    Series 60 had the manually shifted headstock with short levers, and an "open tumbler" pin and pocket quick change feed+ thread gearbox

    Series 61 had the design change of the fully enclosed quick change gearbox with the round selector dial.

    Series "61-2" went with the manually-hydraulically shifted headstock with external spindle motor and external hydraulic tank

    Series "61-3" has essentially the same headstock with the "internalized" main motor and hydraulic tank

    Series 62 is the fully autoshifted headstock.

    I could be 1000 miles off with above, the Occam's Razor question I can't fully answer is why didn't they just go with Series 60, 61, 62, 63, and Series 64 would be the fully autoshifted headstock.

    In any case very interesting to speculate and think of the marketing+sales side of the business trying to predict where shop owners wanted to go and produce a machine that was right for the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt_isserstedt View Post

    Series 60 had the manually shifted headstock with short levers, and an "open tumbler" pin and pocket quick change feed+ thread gearbox

    Series 61 had the design change of the fully enclosed quick change gearbox with the round selector dial.


    I could be 1000 miles off with above, the Occam's Razor question I can't fully answer is why didn't they just go with Series 60, 61, 62, 63, and Series 64 would be the fully autoshifted headstock.

    In any case very interesting to speculate and think of the marketing+sales side of the business trying to predict where shop owners wanted to go and produce a machine that was right for the time.
    I have a Series 61, and read up on the Series 60/61 more. They are really the same machine, but the title change to "61" was implemented after a series of updates/upgrades.

    The Series 60 was initially open tumbler type qcgb like you said when it first came out in the late 1940's. But by the early 1950's the enclosed qcgb came out, while the machine was still a model 60.

    By the mid 1950's, not sure exact date, they just changed the name of the machine to 61.

    Mine is from August 1956, and the build sheet from Monarch lists it as a 61.

    There's a member here, not very active, but more known on youtube, the channel is "always sunny in the shop", his is from 1953, enclosed qcgb, but listed as a Series 60. I seem to recall the same with some other members, though I can't remeber where I read it.

    Parts are inter-changeable, except between the two styles of qcgb. If you look at a Series 60 manual, it only shows the open tumbler type, but I think Monarch was not real concerned about an "unvieling" so to speak.

    Could be similar to the other models you mentioned. But I haven't read up on them as much.

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    Monarch model numbers/series has always been a bit confusing. I think the 10EE was the only one to escape this game. Even back to the 30's, what's the difference between a "BB" and a "CBB". Maybe someone in marketing was trying to compete with new models from competitors, so they assigned new names when they deemed it necessary from a marketing perspective. Or for all we know, they changed the naming to correspond to new/changing assembly lines. I'm just glad it worked out that the 612 with the internal motor used the same QCGB tumbler as a model 61 ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabler View Post
    Monarch model numbers/series has always been a bit confusing. I think the 10EE was the only one to escape this game. Even back to the 30's, what's the difference between a "BB" and a "CBB". Maybe someone in marketing was trying to compete with new models from competitors, so they assigned new names when they deemed it necessary from a marketing perspective. Or for all we know, they changed the naming to correspond to new/changing assembly lines. I'm just glad it worked out that the 612 with the internal motor used the same QCGB tumbler as a model 61 ...
    ISTR there was a logical method to the letter parts of the code and that we HAVE it on PM. But it was in a thread many YEARS ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt_isserstedt View Post
    My 61-2 is a self-concocted naming sequence but here's why....

    Series 60 had the manually shifted headstock with short levers, and an "open tumbler" pin and pocket quick change feed+ thread gearbox

    Series 61 had the design change of the fully enclosed quick change gearbox with the round selector dial.

    Series "61-2" went with the manually-hydraulically shifted headstock with external spindle motor and external hydraulic tank

    Series "61-3" has essentially the same headstock with the "internalized" main motor and hydraulic tank

    Series 62 is the fully autoshifted headstock.

    I could be 1000 miles off with above, the Occam's Razor question I can't fully answer is why didn't they just go with Series 60, 61, 62, 63, and Series 64 would be the fully autoshifted headstock.

    In any case very interesting to speculate and think of the marketing+sales side of the business trying to predict where shop owners wanted to go and produce a machine that was right for the time.
    Looks to me like the full dyna-shift 62 came out while still selling model 61’s. Then the 61 got modified to the semi-hydraulic model, so yeah the 612 is really a model 61 version 2.

    Per your nomenclature mine is a version 3, motor under the headstock, but it is ducemented as a 612-2516T

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabler View Post
    Looks to me like the full dyna-shift 62 came out while still selling model 61’s. Then the 61 got modified to the semi-hydraulic model, so yeah the 612 is really a model 61 version 2.

    Per your nomenclature mine is a version 3, motor under the headstock, but it is ducemented as a 612-2516T
    Do keep in mind that Monarch "AFAIK" did not build for showrooms, on speculation of future sale, nor for "dealer inventory". South Bend may have. But not the "heavy" makers.

    All Monarch's were built off a firm customer ORDER in advance of production.

    So there has always been overlap and apparent version backtracking off a wide range of options running in parallel assembly to what any given customer wanted.

    The result was closer to upscale boat builders, heavy trucks, or even railway gear - always SOME differences, even on the same hull or chassis - than to cookie-cutter standard automobile builders.

    There WILL BE.. variations in two machine tools, same brochure / label "Model" that went through production side-by-side on the timeline and the floor of the assembly hall.. even if they shipped same day.

    The Customer ... got whatever it was they had been willing to pay for.

    Still does!


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    Small steps, a little progress:

    Cleaned and slapped some paint on the apron. Pulled the apron's oil pump out and replaced the felt filter. I'm going to give the paint a week or so to harden and then rehang the apron on the carriage and hopefully test it out. I really should go through all the oil lines in the apron and carriage to be sure they're not plugged up, and will do that at some point. But for now this thing has been non-functional for too long, I'm ready to try it out. The CA post tracking shows it as arriving today.






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