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What sort of runout should a 10ee have?

Abeship

Hot Rolled
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Feb 23, 2013
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I have been keeping my eye open for a 10ee for one popped up not too far from me. I believe it is a round dial model, pre 1950 build. What sort of runout should be seen on the spindle nose for one of these? I had the seller put a indicator on the spindle nose and he was seeing between .0005 and .001" of runout.
 
Monarch specifies .0001 for a new EE machine. There was an option on some years that it could be ordered with a special super precision bearings with a 20 to 50 millionths runout.
 
I have been keeping my eye open for a 10ee for one popped up not too far from me. I believe it is a round dial model, pre 1950 build. What sort of runout should be seen on the spindle nose for one of these? I had the seller put a indicator on the spindle nose and he was seeing between .0005 and .001" of runout.

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some people just setup a tool post grinder and regrind spindle nose the .0005 to .0010" to get lower runout if they really want that. sometimes spindle nose is banged up a bit with burs needing stoning.
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sometimes bearings are loose and thats the oil in the bearings picking up spindle and it bouncing around unstable at lower rpm. if you tighten bearings be careful about them getting extra hot at higher rpm. sometimes you need them a little loose if running at high rpm a lot. with indicator on spindle try picking it up and or moving side to side. measure how much it moves
 
I have been keeping my eye open for a 10ee for one popped up not too far from me. I believe it is a round dial model, pre 1950 build. What sort of runout should be seen on the spindle nose for one of these? I had the seller put a indicator on the spindle nose and he was seeing between .0005 and .001" of runout.

That sounds high. You'll probably still get some use out of the machine but it would be conservative to budget for bearings depending on your intended use. Though in all of the machines I have checked out from 1940s to 1960s models almost none actually needed bearings. Even machines that sat outside under a tarp for years checked out. There could be a burr on the spindle nose from chuck install/removal. I've seen the taper similarly scratched with frequent through bore use.
 
Guess I would compare the ID with the nose OD to see how they run.. one good and one bad, run together with run-out on the same side..Take .0005 off the nose if the ID runs true?..perhaps replace bearings if run-out together,,perhaps take-up pre load?..

Actually do nothing might be what I would do..if the Id ran good..and the bearing needed no take-up.
 
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perhaps replace bearings

Only if you can get super precision bearings which are definitely not "inexpensive"

If Timken this would be Class 0 and Class 00

Since Class 0 went in ordinary lathes, maybe Monarch went with Class 00 for the 10 EE - or equally precise angular contact ball bearings
 
Probably not tapered roller bearings in the spindle. Monarch did build a very few 10EEs with tapered bearings, but only one has popped up here to date.

Cal
 
I have been keeping my eye open for a 10ee for one popped up not too far from me. I believe it is a round dial model, pre 1950 build. What sort of runout should be seen on the spindle nose for one of these? I had the seller put a indicator on the spindle nose and he was seeing between .0005 and .001" of runout.

1) check it your self, don't rely on the seller.
2) if it is one thou or more, that sounds pretty bad for a 10EE
3) is that runout or static play?
 
Seems that it should be zero to a number...low to high.. -.0005 and + .001? or +.0005 +.001? both goffy numbers
zero to + or - something would be better.

Is it the nose register diameter, you might check that to be true round..you likely can't fix that(out of round) with any grinding because that will make it true round but .0005 or so small.

Bearing preload loose?..or bad bearing?. if it is a bad bearing the OD and ID will run out the same.

bent spindle?

or is it the nose face register that is out? that should also be zero to a number.
 
Monarch specifies .0001 for a new EE machine. There was an option on some years that it could be ordered with a special super precision bearings with a 20 to 50 millionths runout.
Pretty sure Monarch would reject .0001. Have a late-ish brochure (80s vintage perhaps) that specifies .0000,30 for axial and radial runout.

If the bearings are bad or the spindle is bent, regrinding the nose isn't really going to fix anything.
 
Pretty sure Monarch would reject .0001. Have a late-ish brochure (80s vintage perhaps) that specifies .0000,30 for axial and radial runout.

If the bearings are bad or the spindle is bent, regrinding the nose isn't really going to fix anything.

no, they wouldn't reject .0001 in 1947. they would most definitely reject .001,
however, what Monarch would or would not reject then is irrelevant, this is a 70 year old machine.

what is .0000,30? :nutter:
 
I was always told 40 millionths was standard from Monarch??? I was under the impression that .0001 was definitely too much for brand-new specs.
 
no, they wouldn't reject .0001 in 1947. they would most definitely reject .001,
however, what Monarch would or would not reject then is irrelevant, this is a 70 year old machine.

what is .0000,30? :nutter:

Yes they would and did, the 10EE had 40 millionths or better runout from it's introduction onward.
It is relevant to the discussion because a new machine is the standard to compare a used machine against, and my friend Daryl stated a spec that was in error.
.0000,30 is another way to write "30 millionths of an inch" or ".000030".
 
Monarch sorted through cases to get the best ones

Only if you can get super precision bearings which are definitely not "inexpensive"

If Timken this would be Class 0 and Class 00

Since Class 0 went in ordinary lathes, maybe Monarch went with Class 00 for the 10 EE - or equally precise angular contact ball bearings

Hi John,
Years ago I bought two C series Monarchs from a gentleman who started at Monarch in the early 50’s and ended up on the board of directors in the 70’s and he said they would buy those precision bearings by the gross and sort through them for the best sets and use the ones that didn’t pass muster in other parts of the machine. Pretty remarkable efforts to make them the best.
 
Thumbnails good old info. Helps the folks understand JUST HOW GOOD went into machine tools. Note a rather ordinary Class 0 has but TEN PERCENT of the assembled run out of a gear box / truck axle class 2 bearing.

Scans from Timken Engineering

Hi John,
Years ago I bought two C series Monarchs from a gentleman who started at Monarch in the early 50’s and ended up on the board of directors in the 70’s and he said they would buy those precision bearings by the gross and sort through them for the best sets and use the ones that didn’t pass muster in other parts of the machine. Pretty remarkable efforts to make them the best.
 

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I just pulled up a Official Monarch works card for EE 41253. On the drawing for the spindle nose there are 3 specs. Face runout, Taper runout, Cam action? They show American Standard @ .0003 for all three categories, Monarch Standard @ .0001 , and This machine, all three at .0001. Spindle taper has its own category runout... Monarch standard .0001, This machine. .0001. If I could easily pull up a pic of this I would. I found another scanned Works record card, but It didn't have the Ser# ,( it may be mine), and show the same Monarch [email protected], but on this specific machine , the taper nose and inside taper measured at .00005
 
I just pulled up a Official Monarch works card for EE 41253. On the drawing for the spindle nose there are 3 specs. Face runout, Taper runout, Cam action? They show American Standard @ .0003 for all three categories, Monarch Standard @ .0001 , and This machine, all three at .0001. Spindle taper has its own category runout... Monarch standard .0001, This machine. .0001. If I could easily pull up a pic of this I would. I found another scanned Works record card, but It didn't have the Ser# ,( it may be mine), and show the same Monarch [email protected], but on this specific machine , the taper nose and inside taper measured at .00005

Hey - that's my lathe! May as well post the full set.

insp_report_01.gif


insp_report_02.gif


insp_report_03.gif
 
Well, I stand corrected, so I apologize to anyone offended. I was going off this direct from Monarch, acceptance sheets on 2 10EE I have worked on, and numerous references on this forum from several knowledgable individuals, stating 40 millionths is the standard.
Scan-10EE3.jpg
 








 
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