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Thread: "Wreck" Update

  1. #201
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    The assembled cross feed handle.
    Very nice work Harry. This whole project is a labor of love, clearly. So much detail, so many things that have to be exactly right.

    -Dave

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    It would be pretty easy to blue the gear and see where the interference is, but at present I don't have any Dykem. I had a bottle, but I use the stuff very, very rarely. When it went bad I never replaced it, it may be time.
    You are almost right about the .010, but it would be a little more. The mating gear axis is a little to the left, in the apron, under the cross feed axis. I didn't do the trig. The other factor is the involute shape of the teeth, and I think there is a formula for what I did, but I gambled on a WAG, decided on the .008", and the results are in. I would have probably been better off going in at .128" or .129".
    I had the key welded into the gear. I champfered one end of the slot and one end of the key, each at opposite ends, and shoved a 3/8" D rod in the hole to keep the key located in the slot. Still it was a relatively tight slip fit. The welder basically did a tack weld at each end. The gear is 4140 PH and the key is O-1. The real surprise was that the screw slid right in, I didn't have to do any fitting. Given the confines of the hole and the location of the key, that would have been very difficult.
    On the original, Monarch has, what appears to be, a tight fit in the slot and the top of the key is mushroomed into the top edge of the slightly beveled slot, much like a rivet. The surface, I believe, was then finished afterwards. Getting the original key out, was not easy.
    Harry

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    Quote Originally Posted by rimcanyon View Post
    Very nice work Harry. This whole project is a labor of love, clearly. So much detail, so many things that have to be exactly right.

    -Dave
    Well said, and seconded!

    Harry, thanks for the explanation on the gear calculation.

    Cal

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    Last weekend, after the coffeee club left, I put an indicator on the saddle to further investigate a potential problem I noticed when I closed the half nuts on the leadscrew. There was noticeable movement of the screw, but how much. A couple of thou, no sweat, but .020" is a different story. The nuts were pulling the screw forward.
    I thought about it for the next few days, tried forcing the apron further back against the saddle register. The best I could do was .015", maybe.
    Wednesday, the saddle and apron came off, again. I'm getting pretty fast at this, unfortunately. The saddle was set up on the mill, and I used the V slide as the reference surface. I also indicated the rear face of the saddle, which showed a change of approx .006" over the length. The .006" I could attribute to the correction necessary for cross slide alignment, and the other .014" to the bed and saddle scraping, mainly because I can't think of any other reason.
    I milled off .020" from the saddle's apron register, and elongated all the mounting holes .020" to accommodate the screw movement. The holes were originally .391" D for the 3/8" SHCS. The screw heads where also reduced about .015" D.
    The saddle and apron were reinstalled, and the best alignment I could get was .005" movement of the leadscrew, without the thread dial engaged. Once I got the thread dial fully engaged, the indicator didn't budge.
    A word about the thread dial gear, and this is why I'm a bit skeptical that I'm totally for the above readings. The wear pattern on the gear teeth indicated that the thread dial gear was never at full engagement depth, and the locating screw on the saddle was fully seated when I took it apart 2 years ago. Draw your own conclusions.

    Milling .020" off the saddle's apron register. Note the paper plug in the saddle's oil supply hole and the brass plugs in the V slide oil ports. I wasn't interested in cleaning these.


    The taper attachment is next.
    BTW, I did find wear marks/scratches, on the addendems of the cross feed gear. That looks easy enough.
    Harry

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    As you recall, the lathe had a broken taper attachment from being improperly unloaded, it either caught the TA on the hook, or the lathe rolled on its back. There are pictures of the broken TA at the beginning of this topic, hence the name "Wreck".
    One of the members offered me a mostly complete TA, off a slightly older machine, and it's in the process of being adapted and mounted on this lathe. I'm not experiencing any undo problems, as of yet, but there have been a couple of areas that needed addressing. The TA has been painted, and new bearings installed. The biggest problem was getting the drawbar properly aligned and easy working. The drawbar was ground, mostly as a result of the scraping of the cross slide area. It stood about .010" taller than the top of the dovetail, and material was ground off both sides. The biggest problem was that the recess in the dovetail, and the TA carriage bracket were slightly misaligned, approx .015" which caused a binding drawbar. The end solution was to reduce the diameter of the carriage brackets' screw heads and move the entire bracket towards the TS end. The unit now works as it should, easily.
    The next "problem" is going to be the cross slide and the cross feed screw alignment, and that's next on the list.

    The alignment of the slide and swivel, are what I'll call "semi-critical". In the past, when I reassembled the TA, I set the swivel at the O mark, and aligned the swivel parallel to the bed by traversing the carriage, and adjusting the horizontal bearings. That's how I did it last Saturday. Never before did I push the slide, while the indicator was still in place, but I did last Saturday, and it was out .010", but 0-0 if the carriage was traversed. In the past, this has not affected the work, and I don't think it will now, but being the anal retentive type, I decided to look at this a little closer yesterday. My solution was to slide the slide to one extreme and indicate the vertical side of the slide for about 5", and adjust the horizontal bearings. Once I got 0-0 readings, I then re-indicated the swivel as before, and adjusted the degree and taper per foot index for 0 setting. To make this job a bit easier I also removed the top gibs, so I see what was going on with the ball bearings as I was adjusting them. The first 2 pictures show the set ups.




    Just checking that the drawbar has enough room at the front, it looked a little long, but wasn't. This is the maximum setting and travel of the TA.


    Monarchs are full of surprises. Here's a new one for me. I've always assumed that the pins in the connector bars were dowel pins. They're taper pins, as I found out when I had to replace the one on the right.

    Harry

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    All of the pins associated with my 14C (1940) TA and cross slide are taper pins.

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    Harry,

    In the TA for my 1943 round-dial, 3 of the 4 slide bearing studs are eccentric; the 4th is just a stud. Parts picture E-9 shows the non-eccentric stud closest to the bed and tailstock. I assume it's this way to facilitate adjusting the slide parallel to the bed, as you did. Does your TA have the non-eccentric stud?

    Do you plan to dowel-pin the TA to the bed?

    Cal

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    The TA will be dowel pinned to the carriage, after I check for horizontal alignment. Was going to that the other day, until I discovered that I didn't have drill bit long enough, and it was too late to make up an extension. Don't forget, this is not the original TA, so holes don't always align, I know the dowel pin holes don't, and I ran into a few others. I had to use parts from both TAs to get one.
    I think all 4 of the bearing studs are eccentric, I don't recall one being concentric. I think it's better with all eccentric studs, there is more wiggle room, but it is also a little harder to do. I remember the SE 60's studs being all eccentric, all 16 of them. That was tough; just 4 on the EE, that's easy.
    Harry

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    HI Harry,

    On my 73 the cross bars have no dowels or taper pins just the SHCS, the castings match - no holes for any pins so at some point Monarch must have thought they didn't need to pin those parts. I can shoot a picture if you want as the taper attachment is in the basement at the moment.

    Another data point on the eccentric bearing adjusters - on the 73 one bearing stud is straight - non eccentric. Maybe it got replaced on yours or they tried something different. As you say, gives you more wiggle room with the down side that there is no fixed starting point. Given the quality of your work definitely not an issue for you.

    Paul

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    Default Cross Feed Screw and Nut

    It's time for the cross feed screw and nut to be mounted. With the replacement TA was a cross feed screw, in relatively good condition. However the nut that came with it, and the original nut I had, were both beyond redemption, as the threads were worn to the sharp crest stage. In the past, I have made the new nuts, fitting them to the screws. I just didn't feel like fighting that battle this time, but maybe I should have.
    I bought a replacement nut, from a non OEM vendor, at a very reasonable price. I may be in error, but it has generally been my experience when you buy replacement parts for a custom fitted item, you have to do some custom fitting on your end also. To this end I expect certain details to be present. The 2 details I expect to be present on this item would be the abscence of the mounting holes and some some extra material on mounting surface. There is one more detail I expect, and I will get to that in a bit. The presence of the mounting holes I knew about at the time of purchase, however, the lack of extra material on the mounting surface was a surprise. Both of these facts create some extra work, some of it head scratching, but not insurmountable.
    You may ask why I expect these details. The reasoning is thus; these are custom fitted items, the machine is worn and things do move around, more so if this a reconditioning job. The cross feed screw, in my experience, is in an unchanging location, and the cross slide will generally move to the tailstock end in this relationship. Something has to be relocated, and drilling new mounting holes seems to be the easiest solution, in most cases. I have in the past, added Multifil to the guiding slide of the cross slide to take care of this problem, when the movement was excessive, as it was on my 12" CK, approx .030", but on this lathe the movement was under .010".
    As to the lack of extra material on the mounting surface, this is really inexcusable. If this were a brand new machine, there is no way that this nut would be acceptable, as it is this is a reconditioned lathe, material was removed from both the cross slide ways and the cross slide, closing up the distance between the screw and the cross slide's mounting surface, and I still have to add a shim to close the gap and get a solid mount.
    Now for the third part, and this came as I was in the process of making a new screw. The full thread depth on the screw is; 1/2 the pitch +010". This is a 5/8" D X 8 TPI LH Acme thread. Full thread depth is .0725", or .145" on the direct reading DRO display. At .130" depth I started checking the fit of the nut on the screw, the nut went on easily. It also had detectable side twist. After I get everything suitably mounted and operating properly I may make a new cross feed screw to fit the nut better, and reduce the backlash a little more.
    The reason I made a new cross feed screw;
    The backlash on the "old" screw I have is .045" in the middle and .020" on the ends, I can work with that, but "in for a penny, in for a pound" in this situation. I've done too much work on this lathe to start overlooking that small detail. The new screw has a backlash of under .010" on the direct reading dial and indicator set-up, and my other EE has a backlash of approx .005", and I think I can do better.
    Testing the nut on the new screw.


    The new screw mounted on the draw bar, and the old screw that came with the replacement TA. I also made a new bearing block to accomodate the new thrust bearings, which are slightly larger in diameter than the originals, which I didn't have a complete set of.

    Harry

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  12. #211
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    You may ask why I expect these details. The reasoning is thus; these are custom fitted items, the machine is worn and things do move around, more so if this a reconditioning job.
    Harry, I agree with you 100%. I have a collection of used screws and nuts and both the offset and the spacing of the two holes varies. Trying to fit a used screw and nut to a lathe requires some work, to get the alignment right. I have posted about it in the past. I sometimes get lucky and find a combination where the nut has excess offset so it can be machined to fit. I have also removed nuts from lathes that I bought, only to find shims between the nut and the bottom of the cross slide.

    However, I did buy one of the nuts that has been offered for sale on this forum and on ebay, and which is made by the seller. I found that the fit to the cross slide screw was very good, and I was able to reduce backlash to about .005" using that nut. I also got lucky and did not need to shim or machine the nut.

    -Dave

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    I bought a cross-slide and compound nuts, probably from the same guy as you. I had to shim my cross-slide nut, but I don't have an issue with that. My issue is with the material. I think it is yellow brass, not bronze. The friction properties of steel on yellow brass are not as nice as steel on bronze. I found there was stick-slip between the screw and nut. This made me go back to the old bronze nut on the cross-slide, which wasn't too worn, really. I did keep the new nut on the compound, but the stick slip sure is noticeable.

  14. #213
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    Last Monday I wrestled with the screw/nut issue and finally got it resolved. I removed the .015" shim I super glued on and replaced it with a .020" shim, not glued, which made a noticeable improvement on the ease of moving the cross slide. On my other EE, I can literally spin the handwheel a couple of turns with no effect on the accuracy, or repeatability in a cut. I was hoping to get the same results on this lathe, but that is not the case. I can get maybe a half turn, but it is definitely easier now than before. I think a lot has to do with the tightness of gib, and I experimented with that issue, eventually reaching a suitable adjustment, basically determined by how the DTI moved when I pushed on the cross slide and the amount of springback. If no springback, generally over .001", it was too loose, if the DTI moved less than a .0005" and sprung back to 0, I felt that the adjustment had been reached. Any tighter, then the cross slide really got hard to move, and would have been difficult to adjust for that little bit that one seems to need. The final backlash I measured was approx .0065", or so.
    It's nice to know that others share my thoughts on after-market parts.
    As far as the material is concerned, I'm pretty sure this nut is bronze. I had to remove some material, to clear an oil line in the channel, it was protruding from the recess a bit much, and sure machined like bronze.
    So for now, I'll go with this set-up, and see how things work out.

    Well, I can finally see the light at the end of the tunnel. The last major piece is the tailstock, and I'll get to that very soon, but I still have a little to do on the carriage; the TA cover, the vernier for the TA, and a cover for the rear of the cross slide.
    I did complete the rest of the apron control system today.
    The carriage is done, with the exceptions noted above.


    The right end bracket needed a groove for the internal passage of the wiring for the apron control switch. I've never seen the bracket for the ELSR, but I'm sure it has something similar.


    The switch mounting plate. Note the slot for the wire passage. The apron control handle and the cam/switch arrangement are in the off position.


    All covered up, all it needs is paint.

    Harry

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    A few years ago, I got lucky and bought a TA vernier attachment on ebay that was mostly complete except for the worm and dial assembly. As it turned out, I had the worm on the shelf from a purchase many, many years before, for a project long since forgotten. I don't think I'm going to be that lucky again, especially since I don't see many, if any, of these attachments on ebay. The ones I do hear about, are frightfully expensive, IMO.
    The math was worked out long ago, from what little information I could gather at the time, and confirmed when I recieved the vernier, as to the gearing.
    Making one of these attachments shouldn't be too difficult, buy the gears and whittle on some CI, alum, or steel. Checking the scrap pile, I found some CI, I think it's Meehanite, and set to work.
    The biggest problem turns out to be the gears. The only supplier that I found so far is Boston. The prices quoted aren't bad, in fact they're very reasonable, but business is very bad, and I've got loads of time to play. The only real problem to get around is the worm gearing. As it turns out, 32 DP is very close to 10 TPI, that I think this worth trying. To me, this is not an application requiring precision gearing. So, I'm going to gash the worm gear and finish, either by making a hob, or lapping with a sacraficial worm.
    Progress so far;
    On the right is the Monarch vernier assembly, and the left is my copy, so far. I do have some corrections to make to the bosses, as I went a bit to deep with the boring head.


    The bottom sides. The speeds and feeds were the same, as for the rest of the milling, yet every now and then I'll get a pull out. You better have fast reflexes, and this time nothing broke, and nobody got hurt. The only solution was to reset everything and really cut back on the feed rate, and to tighten the vise a bit more. The only good thing, is that this is not readily visible.

    Harry

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    I hate when that happens. I always get a sick feeling in the pit of my stomache.
    Glad you weren't hurt.

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    Nice work, Harry. Would you be willing to share the design of your TA adjuster body?

    I look forward to seeing how you make the gearing.

    Cal

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    The TAA(Taper Attachment Adjuster) is a blatant copy of the Monarch gearbox, which served as the model. The important dimensions are dictated by the gearing. All the gears in the Monarch version are 32 DP, 14-1/2* PA. The gear segment on the TA swivel is part of a 432 tooth gear, which is 1.2 times larger than a 360 tooth gear. The dial has 60 graduation marks for minutes. The worm gear has 30 teeth, and is compounded to a 36 tooth spur gear, 1.2:1 ratio, so each revolution of the worm rotates the swivel 1*, the worm is a single start. The spur gears have a 3/16" face. The idler gear also has 36 teeth. The dimension from the swivel/gearbox interface to the center of the idler gear is .5625", and the center distances for the 36 tooth gears is 1.125". The center distance for the worm and worm gear is .6875". The block of cast iron has overall dimensions of 1.406" thick, 3.0" wide and 3-1/8" long.
    I did find one supplier for the 36 tooth spur gears, and the worm and worm gear, Boston. My bearing supplier checked with Martin, Browning and some others but drew blanks. There is one spur gear that does present a problem if you are going to use stock spur gears, and that is the gear compounded to the worm gear. I don't think it is insurmountable, but I don't think it's a piece of cake either. That gear is shown in one of the pictures above.
    The 32 DP worm has a linear pitch 0f .098X", very close to 10 TPI, so that is where my determination came from to make the worm gearing. I thought it was going to be a little easier than it turned out. After working out the worm gear calculations, I'm sure the formulas are in MHB, I used a different book, I think it's called "Machinist Ready Reference", and quickly discovered that a 10 TPI for the basis, the PD's of the gears changed, and as a result I had work out all the important dimensions. The biggest problem was this morning, when I was doing the trig for setting up the mill for the helix angle gashing. I was literally chasing my tail, until it dawned on me that all I had to do was solve 2 triangle problems, and I had my DRO readings from the starting edge. BTW, the helix angle is approx 4-1/3*'s.
    One other problem was the spur gear cutter I bought. The working depth is .0673", and is marked on the cutter. This is an imported cutter, and I don't think they put the finishing touches on it.I machined the first set to the recommended WD, but when I tried to assemble the gears in the gearbox, they wouldn't go. I measured over the gears meshed on the bench, and did the same to the Monarch gears; there was approx a .025" difference. 2 things I could do, return the cutter, or make new gears compensating for the difference. I also needed the cutter for gashing the worm gear. I made new gears. They have a bit more backlash than the Monarch gears, but I don't consider this as critical.
    As of now, most of the difficult work is done.

    Checking that the gearbox has all the necessary clearances.


    There will be 2 spur gears cut from this bar.


    Gashing the worm gear. It's hard to tell, but the DH is set to 4-1/3* approx. BTW, I screwed up, the worm gearing is supposed to be RH, and the cutter should have been on the backside of the blank. Fortunately the worm hasn't been made yet, so LH doesn't present a problem.


    The lapping/grinding set-up. I'll make a new worm for the gearbox.


    Another view.

    Harry

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    Making sure the spur gears work properly. The swivel was rotated back and forth to the travel limits with no binding, nor excessive backlash. I was expecting to have to make an adjustment to the gearbox, either adding a shim, or removing some material, but not this time.


    All the gears for the TAA. The 2 rings are bronze spacers to raise the spur gears off the gearbox and to place the gears approx centered in the gear segment on the swivel. The worm gear is still unfinished.


    The worm was made long on both ends for manufacturing purposes. The excess, .096" was removed from the bottom, and the fit is being checked. If the worm gear will slide the worm off the shaft without undue effort, I'll be very satisfied. I was very satisfied. I did not detect any slop, indicating excessive backlash, but I'll have to wait for final assembly before passing judgement.


    Not a very good picture, but I'm ready to drill holes for the fasteners.


    A different view of the above. The worm gear was throated before the grinding/lapping procedure.


    For comparative purposes, the Monarch gears are on the right, mine on the left.

    Harry

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    Very nice work, Harry!

    Thanks for the design information. My 10EE just has a single gear with a wrench-hex for the aduster. I would like to make a micrometer adjuster one day, but I don't have one to copy. Did you make a sketch of your body?

    Regarding the 10 TPI, I had noticed several years ago that a 3/4-10 tap meshes very nicely with the sector. Could a tap be used to hob the worm gear?

    How did you round the outside of the body?

    Could you explain the steps for the lapping/grinding operation?

    Cal
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails dsc00004.jpg  

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    Harry, Why didn't you buy the worm gears from Boston? They were like $15 if I remember. Great work BTW, I've enjoyed watching your progress on this project.

    Tom


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