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Thread: "Wreck" Update

  1. #21
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    Harry, How many hours do you think you've invested so far just the scraping. It sure looks like great progress cleaning up the condition of those ways. Are the Vee blocks intended to span the vee ways, or sit on them to check for DOC of the scraping, I don't quite understand that part or your work.

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    A WAG would be 60 hours, there's about 8 hours on the V way so far, and the rest on the flat way. I'm using this project as filler between the money jobs, so I'm not really keeping time sheets.
    The V blocks are a matched set, and I'm using them the same way I used the matched blocks on the flat way. They can only be used on the same way, or I can use one on the V way and a riser on the flat way to check parallelism between the 2 ways. I'll be getting into that aspect when I start scraping the outside face of the inside V way, to indicate parallelism to the inside flat way. See the 3rd picture in 1-15 post. I'm using them in the manner shown, to support the level, so that I can effectively tell what I've done and tell me where to concentrate next. In this context, you could say I'm using the level as a measuring instrument. I can't use the V blocks to check the V ways against each other, due to the difference in the way heights.
    Harry

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    Moglice putty would fill in that chip real nice. One of my past lathes someone had taken a hacksaw to the way in an attempt to widen the gap and then gave up. Filled it in with moglice and other than the black stripe you would never even know it is there.

    I would save that for when you know if and how much you are going to have to build up the saddle to get it back to height. You just can mix a little at a time.

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    I got finished with the inside face of the inside V way, I think, there may be a correction needed later, today.
    The first picture is a spotting of the inside face. The medium is applied a little heavier than I like at this point, but it won't show up in a picture if any lighter.
    The second and third pictures are of the level, and how I'm using it. In the second picture the V block on the right is on the 4-1/3 mark(approx 32-1/2" from the left end of the bed), and the level is in the same spot in the next picture checking transversely. This is the low spot on the outside face of the V way. To the left the face rises about .002", and to the right it rises about .001". The objective is get the outside face flat and parallel to the inside face, and to have them parallel to the inside flat way. Once this objective has been reached, I have datum surfaces for the outer ways.
    The fourth picture is checking how much has been removed from the inside face. I will monitor this measurement while scraping the outside face. So far approx .004" straight down has been removed.








    Harry

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    Harry. Nice work. I really enjoy your efforts and have followed this and your other scraping projects with much interest. I have a question.

    You said,
    "The fourth picture is checking how much has been removed from the inside face. I will monitor this measurement while scraping the outside face. So far approx .004" straight down has been removed."

    You are taking a micrometer reading with the mic anvil on the underside of the V way in conjuction with a V block. This is understood. All the lathes that I am aware of have shown that the underside is just a milled surface to except the tailstock clamping block. Is this a reliable reference datum to take your reading from?

    I am in no way questioning your talents or abilities in your project just trying to learn as much from your efforts as much as possible. Perhaps I may have missed something??

    I look forward to your next photo posting....Mark

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    When I started the project, I took a mike reading at that spot on the V way, and at the same spot on the flat way. I have been monitoring this dimension to see how much I have removed. On the flat way I removed a little over .008", and I'm trying to remove the same amount on the V way straight down, in the hope that I don't have to scrape the headstock because of way height differences. I don't think I'm going to be successful. One of the reasons is that if I move the mike a little bit, I get a different dimension. Dumb me, I didn't check this before starting, but it is a good gauge of how much has been removed; whether it has any practical value remains to be seen. Another reason, is that I really don't know how much has to come off the outside face, I can estimate it, but I won't guarantee it. The face will be done when the objectives have been met. If this was being ground, different story.
    Harry

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    Harry,

    how do you align the inner face of the vee way (i.e. so that it is parallel with the lathe axis)?

    -Dave

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    Dave,
    I've been waiting for that question.
    The scraping sequence is; the inside flat way first, followed by the inside face, then the outside face of the inside V way, then the outer ways. The scraping of these ways starts at the headstock end, only. The straight edge is 4' long, and the area spotted by it is finished, before I start on the last 11" of the way. Then I only scrape the last 11" until it is in agreement with the first 48".
    The ways under the headstock are virgin, they have only supported the headstock and in essence are unworn. It is of paramount importance that these datums be maintained during scraping, in other words GO STRAIGHT DOWN. Checks with the level at frequent intervals helps insure this, and quickly warns you if there is a deviation. In addition, these checks will also give hints if there is problem with the straight edge, which there hasn't been.
    I started with the flat way, because once scraped it will be a datum for the V way, especially when the second face is scraped. Look at the 2nd and 3rd pictures. I've only shown one spot on the bed being checked, but every station(spot) will be checked, as will stations in between. In all cases the level readings should to be the same, in reality they will vary a tiny bit. From what I have observed on my CK, these "tiny bits" are inconsequentual, they just don't show up in the work. When these 2 ways are completed, they will be in the same plane, and they are the reference surfaces for the outer ways. If the original axis has changed, it's not going to be very much. If I had to guess it's less than .0005" in any direction.
    Harry

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    Harry, maybe I'm just being particularly dumb at the moment, but I'm having trouble with your use of the vee block for checking the inside face of the rear prismatic way.

    It seems to me that as you spot the inside face to the straightedge, you will be straightening out that face. I would think that the wear that exists on the rear face would give a false reading on the level as you work on the front, since the section is changing?

    Not trying to give you a hard time, just trying to get my head around this,

    Thanks,

    Rob

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    The only section the level and blocks have any validity is the headstock section and perhaps the next 8-10 inches, remember the TS does not get that close, anywhere else beyond is purely guesswork. As the worn section is eliminated, then the use of V block and level becomes more dependable, but not totally reliable.
    Let me illustrate. I was very close to being finished with the last 11" of the inside face, and checking with the blocks and level, showing a bump, approx .0003"+ high on right, when I put one block on the last section and one block on the first section, and I'm getting good spotting, not perfect, with straight edge for 4' , 37" on the first section, 11" on the last section. There are lot of unknowns when the condition of the outside unscraped face is considered. Do you continue scraping until the bump is eliminated, or do you bow to caution and start on the outside face, and see if you really have an issue when you start working that section of the outside face. The "issue" , if present, will show up like a sore thumb, and can be easily attended to. I'm bowing to caution.
    If you are referring to the picture with the block and mike, that for all intents and purposes is extraneous information, and as I found out, is approxiamate info only. I'm using that information to measure how much has been scraped off.
    Harry

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    Thanks Harry, your explanation covers what I was thinking. I neglected to think about that way being the tail way and that it should be relatively good near the HS.

    Rob

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    Can't imagine taking on a job like that.......would love to be there to see some of what you are doing in person. How is the hardness in the ways holding up? Are you getting into softer material underneath?
    If so, has anybody ever attempted "flame hardening" with a torch?

    My hat is off to anybody saving old iron.

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    The hardness hasn't changed, and I will be surprised if it does. The only spot on the bed ways that are soft are the sections under the headstock.
    Harry

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    Quote Originally Posted by rj1939 View Post
    Can't imagine taking on a job like that.......would love to be there to see some of what you are doing in person. How is the hardness in the ways holding up? Are you getting into softer material underneath?
    If so, has anybody ever attempted "flame hardening" with a torch?
    The Monarch lathe beds are hardened to something in excess of 1/8" deep, I think most anyone would scrap the lathe than try scraping the rest of the bed to that depth (it'd be a fortune in way material under the saddle for that).

    I don't think you could harden with just a torch. All of the images I've seen describing the process has a number of torch heads traveling the bed immediately followed (like 1" later) by a water spray. You'd need to get the surface up to something like 2000 degF and chill it down immediately after. The timing has to be right for it to work at all well.

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    Here is a tool I use to help determine progress. I'm primarily looking for consistence in the readings. If you look at the charts for the inside V way, I bet you can tell what has and hasn't been scraped.









    Harry

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    Quote Originally Posted by rke[pler View Post
    The Monarch lathe beds are hardened to something in excess of 1/8" deep, I think most anyone would scrap the lathe than try scraping the rest of the bed to that depth (it'd be a fortune in way material under the saddle for that).

    I don't think you could harden with just a torch. All of the images I've seen describing the process has a number of torch heads traveling the bed immediately followed (like 1" later) by a water spray. You'd need to get the surface up to something like 2000 degF and chill it down immediately after. The timing has to be right for it to work at all well.
    That is kind of what I was wondering. Years ago when I was in college the metallurgy instructor gave a brief demonstration on the method of hardening casting surfaces. Too many years have passed and what I recall was that he was claiming that the mass of the casting would pull the heat out quick enough to harden.......but he was not lingering on the surface long enough to really get any depth.

  17. #37
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    Default New Toy(On Loan)

    On loan from a member here is a King Tool- Way Alignment Tool. I was finally able to get a bit of work done today, so I made the bed way "V" tube. The tube sent with the tool was to large to work on the EE bed. My understanding there are 2 sizes of tube, 1-7/8" D and the one I made is 1-1/2" D(actually 1.475" by the time I got done with the clean up cut). The width of the narrowest part of the radiused opening in the large tube is approx .650", and on the small one approx .480". I think it should be a bit smaller, but I used a 5/16" corner rounding end mill, and no way was I going to be able to get the cutter in the slot satisfactorily and still be able to use the tube. It works, but just barely; the tube sits a little lower on the V way than I would like on the inside V way.
    The jury is still out on the usefulness of the tool. I really haven't had a chance to use it.
    Anyway, a ouple of pictures.




    Harry

  18. #38
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    There were two "official" versions of the King Way alignment tool. 300 and 100, I think.

    When I purchased, at auction, an unknown version of that tool, it turned out, I believe, to be a prototype for a 50 way alignment tool.

    Rimcanyon (Dave) has the dimensions of his 300, another member's 100, and my putative 50 King Way alignment tools.

    It is possible to duplicate the tools from the patent literature (U.K. and U.S), with reference to some of the dimensions of the actual tools.

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    Thanks Harry for sharing your process.

    Hal

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    Default King Way alignment tool

    A couple years back I took a hand scraping class from Rich King (Journeyman machine tool rebuilder) in Minneapolis. His dad was the builder of the King Way tools. Rich is a nice guy and sometimes advertises his classes on ebay. He demonstrated the way alignment tool during the class. If anyone is interested in getting some experience scraping he is a good source. He also offered me advice on building an alignment tool though I have not taken him up on it. I would be very interested in dimensions, etc if Rimcanyon (Dave) would be willing to share.

    Steve Kadisak


    Quote Originally Posted by peterh5322 View Post
    There were two "official" versions of the King Way alignment tool. 300 and 100, I think.

    When I purchased, at auction, an unknown version of that tool, it turned out, I believe, to be a prototype for a 50 way alignment tool.

    Rimcanyon (Dave) has the dimensions of his 300, another member's 100, and my putative 50 King Way alignment tools.

    It is possible to duplicate the tools from the patent literature (U.K. and U.S), with reference to some of the dimensions of the actual tools.


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