"Wreck" Update - Page 3
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 3 of 15 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 287

Thread: "Wreck" Update

  1. #41
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Monterey Bay, California
    Posts
    10,260
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    28
    Likes (Received)
    217

    Default

    Due to health issues, I became unable to participate further in the King Way repro project, although I am certainly interested in its successful completion.

    I made my putative King Way 50 available to Dave, and it and his 300 and another's 100 were measured in Dave's shop.

    I believe Dave has all the measurements, as well as some ideas for making the repros using available tools.

    The putative 50 doesn't have enough room for the standard King Way level unit, but the 300 certainly does, and the 100 may.

    I have Rich's scraping tape (which I converted to DVD) and it is quite instructive.

    Rich King's tapes and his instruction are highly recommended.

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Country
    CANADA
    State/Province
    Ontario
    Posts
    1,178
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    71
    Likes (Received)
    121

    Default King-way alignment tool

    Peter,skadisak and company,
    I too have been working on a replica of the King-way tool. I have made some preliminary drawings and have been collecting some materials.
    I was fortunate to receive some information from a board member who beat me out on an ebay auction last fall, but I'd be interested in some more details if I could get them. ( I also was out bid on one about two weeks ago. it went for $450.00)

    It seems like a fairly simple thing to replicate, once I have some basic dimensions to work from.

    Chers
    Pete

    ps. perhaps we should start a different thread on this so we don't hijack Harry's VERY interesting rebuild tale.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Monterey Bay, California
    Posts
    10,260
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    28
    Likes (Received)
    217

    Default

    "perhaps we should start a different thread on this so we don't hijack Harry's VERY interesting rebuild tale."

    Yes, the King Way Alignment Tool should be a new thread.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Plymouth, MN, USA
    Posts
    96
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1
    Likes (Received)
    1

    Default new thread -King Way

    Agreed, and apologies to Harry. I will post a new thread under General. Thanks Harry for posting the pictures and well written desciption of requalifying the 10EE bed.

    Steve Kadisak

    Note to Moderators - maybe there should be a "machine rebuilding" forum on the board as many aspects of rebuilding cross over machine make and type.

    Quote Originally Posted by peterh5322 View Post
    "perhaps we should start a different thread on this so we don't hijack Harry's VERY interesting rebuild tale."

    Yes, the King Way Alignment Tool should be a new thread.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
    Posts
    1,760
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    46
    Likes (Received)
    196

    Default

    It's like a cliffhanger tv show.....how did the ways turn out???
    Very inspiring thread. The detailed info on how scraping is done for a very specific job is excellent. I can't claim to follow it all but I do get the gist of it.
    As someone who has never done any scraping but I have flattened a few hand plane bottoms....I have a question, would a diamond hone work to do some of the rough in scraping? I have one for flattening the backs of chisels and plane blades and it is about 2" wide and 8" long. It removes metal, very consistent cutting action, very flat.
    Am I wrong in thinking that the scraped "look" of the finish is there to provide room for the oil to create a bearing surface? Therefore if you can remove the metal quickly and then scrape for the bearing surface and the correct number of spots wouldn't that speed up the work?
    Michael Moore (aspiring machinist)
    Last edited by M. Moore; 03-10-2008 at 04:37 AM. Reason: spelling

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Monterey Bay, California
    Posts
    10,260
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    28
    Likes (Received)
    217

    Default

    "Am I wrong in thinking that the scraped "look" of the finish is there to provide room for the oil to create a bearing surface?"

    That "look", which varies with the manufacturer, and with the technician's skill, is indeed for lubricative reasons.

    With scraping, it is possible to get absolutely flat surfaces, but absolutely smooth surfaces, which is what grinding gives you, is not necessarily the most desirable.

    Monarch has flame hardened all its bed ways since 1936, so the beds have to be ground flat, otherwise they couldn't afford to make the machines.

    Monarch doesn't flame harden the carriage or the tailstock, and definitely not the headstock, so the carriage and the tailstock mating ways are machined so as to provide for oiling.

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Clio MI.,USA
    Posts
    888
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    1

    Default

    [QUOTE=beckley23;821421]Another problem I'm having is shop temperature and the level. I started noticing this about half way through the flat way. I would leave in the evening with the level reading one thing, and check the first thing again the next morning, and it had moved .0005-.001". I also noticed that problem resolved itself after the shop had gotten over 50-55* F, about 3 hours later. I have infrared gas heaters, and I don't heat when I'm closed. The most unusal aspect of this is that the temperature seems to effect the headstock end more than the tailstock end. Maybe it's the location in the shop where I'm doing this, and maybe it's because it's winter, I did the CK in the middle to late summer, and in a different shop location. Anyway whatever the reason, it is another factor to consider.


    Beckly23- thank you for your efforts reporting technique and progress. I find this interesting as I am certain many others do.

    I believe your "level" problem is related to thermal expansion. You might notice one end of the bed is of greater mass than the other so, one end expands at a greater rate.

    Where I worked it was imperative any large item be allowed to sit in the machine environment for 24 hours to expand/contract unifirmally prior to NC machining to achieve first run certification. Our machine area was heated around the clock but still had temp variation due to outside temps.

    Keep up the good work and reporting!-Jerald

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Monterey Bay, California
    Posts
    10,260
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    28
    Likes (Received)
    217

    Default

    "The most unusal aspect of this is that the temperature seems to effect the headstock end more than the tailstock end."

    "I believe your 'level' problem is related to thermal expansion. You might notice one end of the bed is of greater mass than the other so, one end expands at a greater rate."

    That, plus the beds are made of an alloy which is specially formulated for compatibility with Monarch's patented flame hardening process. There are patents for the burners which implements this process, and there are patents on the alloy itself. The two combine to make the flame hardened bed possible.

    I believe the alloy changes during such hardening (I am not a ferrous metals alloy expert by any means, but I do understand the concepts) and with a Monarch bed you have the headstock area which is not flame hardened, and the remainder of the bed which is flame hardened.

    So, the headstock end, which is not hardened, will be in the unchanged form of the alloy, whereas the remainder of the bed, which is hardened, will be in the changed form of the alloy.

    And, Harry is now working primarily on the flame hardened area, while using the headstock end, which is not flame hardened, as the reference.

    So, one might expect that the coefficients of expansion would be different, and it just could be that the unhardened headstock end has the higher coefficient of expansion.

    Under such conditions of significant temperature change, say from the dead of night in an unheated shop to the middle of the day in a possibly heated shop, the variation will be the greatest.

    Which means the work done during the day, while good during that day, may appear to be considerably off, with respect to the reference, when measured again at the beginning of the next day, while under different temperature conditions.

    I gather than for most of Monarch's more productive years, the factory was operated under 24/7 conditions. Certainly during the war, but possibly afterwards, too, as customers' retooling for the post-war period was being accomplished.

    So, the machines on the erection floor, in various stages of completion, would most likely be under more-or-less stable temperature conditions all throughout the erection process.

    This, then, is my (somewhat long-winded) explanation for the observed variation being the greatest under the headstock end.

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    netherlands
    Posts
    505
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    5

    Default

    Of course I'm not an metallurgist and I'm just ventilating some thoughts.
    I don't think the mass has something to do with the different expansions. Expansion on this scale will be pretty linear and only depends on the length. The height at the tailstock is the same as the height at the headstock so the expansion will be the same percentage and distance in height.
    However if the hardened part has less expansion it would be possible that the base gets wider (horizontal) than the bed. Resulting in the bed getting hollow like a banana.
    Maybe the floor should be checked if it stays level, just to make sure.

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Louisville, KY, USA
    Posts
    3,245
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5
    Likes (Received)
    153

    Default

    It's going to be a long "cliffhanger", I work of the EE as a filler job, and only when I have a fairly significant window to do so. Right now I have to make parts for my product line, and do jobs for my customers. I've been booked for at least the past month, and it doesn't look like it's going to let up anytime soon, fortunately.

    The level and temperature situation is in hand, it's more of an inconvenience than anything else. I heat the shop with 5 overhead infrared gas 60,000 BTU heaters individually controlled. I also have a 6000W 3PH electric heater in close proximity to the EE, which is not aimed at the lathe, but at the bench. I very rarely turn on more than 1 gas heater at a time. The temperature in the morning has been hovering around 38-45* F, before I turn on the heat. This is when I notice the level problems, once the temperature gets over 53-55* the problem goes away. It generally takes 2-4 hours, depending on what the outside nighttime temperature was. We are now getting into spring, the past weekend excluded, and I think the temperature situation will be taken care of.

    If you study the charts I posted in my last post, you will notice the temperature affect. The longitudinal readings are off by approx 1/2 a division, remember my reference 0, and they are consistently off for the length of the bed. It just depends on the time of day, and the shop temperature; and that was a cold day. Personally, I think the concrete floor is to blame.
    Harry
    Last edited by beckley23; 03-11-2008 at 09:29 PM. Reason: change a word

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
    Posts
    1,760
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    46
    Likes (Received)
    196

    Default

    Harry, it would be great to see you in the photo holding the scraper as if you were taking a cut. Also would like to see the tool you use in a closeup photo. So many photo's on the pm and not too many people in them.....
    Just a thought if you have time and someone is around to do the camera work.
    Michael

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    grand island,ny
    Posts
    117
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Default

    Personally, I think the concrete floor is to blame.
    Harry that was the first thing that came to my mind when you mention the trouble. I have often thought about that problem in regards to my own shop in which the floor never really gets up to temp in the winter months.

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Leinster, Ireland
    Posts
    1,205
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    44
    Likes (Received)
    52

    Default

    I'm Fascinated by this thread, and have been lurking in the background to learn.

    I'm reading Moore's foundations of mechanical accuracy at the moment, and they explain their findings with differential expansion of machines and straight edges at several points. The ones I can remember were:

    Camel back straight edges, found to be subject to differential heating and distortion. They were abandoned in favour of box section straight edges.

    Everything potentially distorted due to temperature stratification in the air in the work area

    Different colour / finish objects absorbed radiant heat from lights, heaters etc, differently.

    Temperature gain or loss from the air was logarithmic (as you'd expect), so for particularly accurate jobs, the object had to soak for many hours before work began.

    I can't claim any personal experience - just repeating what I've read, hope its of some interest.

    Moore's book is interesting although they did charge me $65 to ship it to Ireland! if the dollar hadn't been so low, I wouldn't have bitten.

    Looking forward to the next installment
    Keith

  14. #54
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Plymouth, MN, USA
    Posts
    96
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1
    Likes (Received)
    1

    Default precision measuring

    Kieth,

    You touched on another factor that occured to me and maybe important - the placement of the IR heaters in Harry's shop and possibly differential heating across the lathe.

    Steve Kadisak

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpacca Fortyfive View Post
    I'm Fascinated by this thread, and have been lurking in the background to learn.

    I'm reading Moore's foundations of mechanical accuracy at the moment, and they explain their findings with differential expansion of machines and straight edges at several points. The ones I can remember were:

    Camel back straight edges, found to be subject to differential heating and distortion. They were abandoned in favour of box section straight edges.

    Everything potentially distorted due to temperature stratification in the air in the work area

    Different colour / finish objects absorbed radiant heat from lights, heaters etc, differently.

    Temperature gain or loss from the air was logarithmic (as you'd expect), so for particularly accurate jobs, the object had to soak for many hours before work began.

    I can't claim any personal experience - just repeating what I've read, hope its of some interest.

    Moore's book is interesting although they did charge me $65 to ship it to Ireland! if the dollar hadn't been so low, I wouldn't have bitten.

    Looking forward to the next installment
    Keith

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Salinas, CA USA
    Posts
    3,872
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    197
    Likes (Received)
    172

    Default

    if the dollar hadn't been so low, I wouldn't have bitten
    Ooh, that hurt. I'm surprised the U.S. economy isn't roaring along as a result of all the bargains to be had. I can't pretend to understand economics.

    -Dave

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Leinster, Ireland
    Posts
    1,205
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    44
    Likes (Received)
    52

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rimcanyon View Post
    Ooh, that hurt. I'm surprised the U.S. economy isn't roaring along as a result of all the bargains to be had. I can't pretend to understand economics.

    -Dave
    Sorry for the digression off topic, but the US economy isn't doing badly. last couple of quarters I heard of, were 5.something% and about 3.8% growth (expressed as annual growth).

    Apart from a sub prime credit crunch, that looked like pretty respectable performance for a developed nation, and far from the 2 or more successive quarters of zero or negative growth needed for recession.

    There seems to be a real problem with predominantly soft left main stream journalists over reporting bad and under reporting good news when there is a Rep. in the White house, and doing it the other way around under a Dem.

    Love the guy or hate him; John Lott has some done some pretty convincing research on media bias, and his website makes interesting reading.

    I'm certainly buying more from the US with the exchange rate so much in my favour, but jokes like $65 postage for a book do leave a nasty taste.

    Getting back to the "wreck"

    I don't know why the headstock end is reacting so differently, but another thought (guess) that has occured is the big mass of metal supporting the headstock end is both rigid and a heat sink, perhaps the bed is flexing with differential heating and the difference in rigidity of the two supports, or the difference in heat gradient because of them is causing the different readings.

    I'm heading into the background again, this thread is far to interesting to risk leading it astray.

    Keep up the good work Gents

    Keith

  17. #57
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Monterey Bay, California
    Posts
    10,260
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    28
    Likes (Received)
    217

    Default

    "I'm heading into the background again, this thread is far to interesting to risk leading it astray."

    An excellent idea.

    Peter (Moderator)

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Louisville, KY, USA
    Posts
    3,245
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5
    Likes (Received)
    153

    Default

    For the past few days I've been working on the outside face of the inside V way, and for all intents and purposes it is done, but I will make that decision tomorrow after I make up some charts and mull them over. As it stands now there are a few anomalies that are definitely giving me some fits, and one of them is a persistent high spot in the middle of the V way. The problem is such that I can't tell which side of the V way the highness is on. I think the problem is on the outside face. The inside face spots all the way, and the outside face is spotting on the ends and with the TS end very slightly high according to the level, I think, considering the bubble position is a judgement call. I have checked the way alignments with the level and the King Way Alignment Tool, and will do it again tomorrow. The ways are definitely within .0005" overall alignment and I think they are a lot closer to .00025".
    The included angle which started out at 65* has changed by 1/2* approx. This change is due to the difficulty of manipulating the straightedge against a very narrow surface, and I more or less expected it. Actually, I'm surprised it wasn't more.
    It's time to start thinking about the shaping/planing sled.
    Harry

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Louisville, KY, USA
    Posts
    3,245
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5
    Likes (Received)
    153

    Default

    My post last night was a bit premature, but not too much. I went checking for the anomalies this morning and found a few problems one I knew about another that was a possibility that became reality. The fixes had been put in and the completion of the V way is very near. The readings charts will come later.
    First, the problem I knew about. The last 15" or so of the flat way was a bit high, if you check the chart in my earlier post you will see it. I figured .00025" on the end of the bed won't affect the overall accuracy of the machine much, but it was causing major problems with the transverse level reading when checking the scraping progress, and I could not effectively mentally compensate for the difference consistently. As a result that section was scraped into proper alignment with the rest of the way.
    The second problem concerns the transverse level checks and the use of a shim on top of the V block to compensate for the height difference between the V block and flat block on the flat way. If the shim got of out of position the tiniest bit, the level readings went askew. I knew of the problem, and had dealt with it, but in the end it was causing problems as I came close to finishing. The solution was to grind a few thou off the flat block. With the block reground, the problem with the gap in the spotting of the rear face of the inside V way was explained. The TS end of the face was still high, and more scraping is/was needed. The spotting gap has alost been completely eliminated, more so than what the picture, which was taken after about 3 scaping cycles, below shows.
    In the inital stages of scraping the V way the shim was/is necessary to use on the transverse checks, to get the level to give a usuable bubble position, but as complettion gets very close it can be a major cause of erroneous readings.
    A couple of pictures, the first is the level on the blocks with the shim used. You will be surprised by how much the bubble moves with the least movement of the shim. The second picture is the spotting of the rear face from position 5 to the end of the bed. Before, the spotting was between 7 & 8, it is now completely spotted but still needs a few more cycles for completion.




    Harry

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Salinas, CA USA
    Posts
    3,872
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    197
    Likes (Received)
    172

    Default

    Harry, the problem with the shim would not occur if you were using the King Way level - is there a reason that you are still using the master precision level?

    -Dave


Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •