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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    Good point about multiple cars versus one delivery van or truck.

    However there is still the little problem of cardboard usage, which has probably increased ten-fold over the last decade.

    And the future of the USPS is package delivery. Everybody gives Trump's USPS guy hell because he removed letter sorting machines; well, he was doing that to make room for package handling equipment.

    ToolCat
    I *think the door to door deliveries are likely no less polluting than individuals driving everywhere to purchase the items. But they could cut down more by having local drop off lock boxes.
    Where I live mail is dropped off at a central location, a large “super” mailbox every fee blocks. Everyone has an individual slot allocated to them and there are a few large package slots.
    When you get a lathe package it’s out in the big slot and a key is placed into your individual mail slot.
    Works very well.
    If they dropped a second larger unit beside it with more large parcel slots it would allow for bulk deposit of reasonably sized items. Then whatever does not fit could then be door to door? Would save time and money while still be timely deliveries?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    Good point about multiple cars versus one delivery van or truck.

    However there is still the little problem of cardboard usage, which has probably increased ten-fold over the last decade.

    And the future of the USPS is package delivery. Everybody gives Trump's USPS guy hell because he removed letter sorting machines; well, he was doing that to make room for package handling equipment.

    ToolCat
    It used to take 2 or 3 days for a letter to get forwarded from Michigan to Arizona, now it takes two weeks. That guy is doing a bang up job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by standardparts View Post
    All those individual deliveries must be creating an epic trash pile of cardboard and plastic. Seems like banning plastic shopping bags and straws is kinda hypocritical when the same localities welcome Amazon with open arms.
    Ever heard the term "recycling"? I get a lot of cardboard and it all goes into a container that gets picked up by the road. Ours got picked up this morning.

    As to banning plastic shopping bags and straws but not cardboard, Cardboard breaks down fairly quickly. Plastic not so much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    Good point about multiple cars versus one delivery van or truck.

    However there is still the little problem of cardboard usage, which has probably increased ten-fold over the last decade.

    And the future of the USPS is package delivery. Everybody gives Trump's USPS guy hell because he removed letter sorting machines; well, he was doing that to make room for package handling equipment.

    ToolCat
    Amazon should encourage cardboard recycling and they could finance it and get something started in fact they could more than likely handle all of the recyclables much better than cities since all cities use money from recyclables to go into City expenses. None show a profit of any large amount because much of the profit has been absorbed. Once money of any kind gets circulating then crafty accounting must take place. They love leeway to pull that off.

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    Finally, someone drew attention to this problem because it also bothers me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MichelleEdmund View Post
    Finally, someone drew attention to this problem because it also bothers me.
    Why would we care if you're "Bothered" ? ... .... spammer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big B View Post
    Ever heard the term "recycling"? I get a lot of cardboard and it all goes into a container that gets picked up by the road. Ours got picked up this morning.

    As to banning plastic shopping bags and straws but not cardboard, Cardboard breaks down fairly quickly. Plastic not so much.
    The big problem with single stream recycling is the labor cost to sort plastic. Until fairly recently it was shipped to China where labor costs were low enough to make a small profit. That is no longer the case and they no longer accept unprocessed recycling.

    As most of us know, recyclable plastics have a symbol and codes that allow visual sorting. The problem is that it is very labor intensive. IMO single stream recycling is largely already "broken" as much of the plastic gets burned rather than recycled. It will be a hard sell but probably in the future consumers will have to pre-sort plastics, with some kind of subdivided container to facilitate this.

    Plastics are viewed as high value, medium value, and low value. The lower value stuff includes plastic bags, which can jam the machinery if put in with single stream recycling.

    Recycling seems to be an area where temporary advances falter and something different must be done. In my household we heavily practice the reuse and reduce parts, even rinsing lightly used zip lock bags for reuse, not out of cheapness but rather a desire to reduce trash. We also repurpose containers and paper and plastic shopping bags so they get multiple use before entering the trash/recycling stream.

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    Around here, we have to go out of our way to find places to recycle stuff. Scrap metals are easy and I'm happy to recycle them as we at least get some pocket change for the hassle. WM handles a lot of the city waste and all the residential properties they service have a recycle bin, but it's limited to what they will take. If I have an old car tire, I have to pay a tire shop to take it, or wait for the city to have another bring-out-your-dead curbside pickup, but my HOA doesn't like me collecting junk beside the house waiting for that. Most of the recycling programs in place tend to cater to a majority scenario, like turning in your old fridge when you buy a new one, but anything outside of that scenario, you're stuck. If I'm cleaning out an old house, it's now on me to find a place to take the fridge and pay them to do it. Nothing is free, but if a service or practice isn't self promoting, why do it?

    At our shop, we have to drive all of our recyclables to various places, and/or pay them to take it. We asked the city if they would take our cardboard, they would be happy to, if we paid them to do it. We're not producing vast amounts of it, but certainly not enough to merit a bailer or rented recycling bin. Now we burn it with down limbs.

    The argument seems to always be "If you do YOUR part, things would be better." But somehow that equates to spending more and more money and getting nothing out of it but a warm fuzzy feeling. Personally, I'm becoming more indifferent about saving the planet, because I'm skeptical about how much is our fault and more-so how much of it is even save-able. But putting that aside, I think the new green politics are beyond moronic, BECAUSE they always push for things that don't directly effect me. It's sad that the polar bears are dieing, but honestly that has little bearing on me providing for my family. On the other hand, so much of the laws and EPA regulations can make it really hard for business's to do their thing, directly effecting me putting food on the table. It just seems so backwards.

    I'm not saying we should go all Trump and scrap all the green stuff. I think the planet should be cared for to the best of our ability and it's just good business to conserve and think about the future, but telling me about the rain forests isn't going to do it. If more city's and governments made more effort making it cost effective and easy to recycle, or switch to greener ways of doing things, I'd be glad to get on board! But telling me I'm killing the rainforest and I should spend more money I don't have so I can watch the rest of the world carry on burning tires is stupid.

    I think it's cool to hear about people finding new ways to process waste and make usable product from it, but that works because it's actually making something. Just regulating what we can't do or forcing the population to pay into a program is self defeating.

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    Some day the rich mining ore will be digging up the landfill.

    Just the organics will be needed to make topsoil.

    Aged poop likely will be valuable.

    After we get rid of all the cows because they fart, and later find we cant grow beans or corn for lack of soil and cow manure we will be in deep shi....Oh no, we won't be able to find enough of that..Darn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    Some day the rich mining ore will be digging up the landfill.

    Just the organics will be needed to make topsoil.

    Aged poop likely will be valuable.

    After we get rid of all the cows because they fart, and later find we cant grow beans or corn for lack of soil and cow manure we will be in deep shi....Oh no, we won't be able to find enough of that..Darn.
    Start making topsoil out of pollititions and solve many problems at once

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big B View Post
    Ever heard the term "recycling"? I get a lot of cardboard and it all goes into a container that gets picked up by the road. Ours got picked up this morning.
    .
    One market segment for us is containers, roll off etc. We sell to some firms so they can haul all the stuff from the recycling centre to the landfill.

    The only way to avoid a future of declining standard of living brought about by scarcity of resources and pollution, is everybody pushing government policies toward population decline. In high wealth nations the policy has to stop immigration and shrink populations. This is the only practical thing that will have any meaningful effect.

    All the rest of the BS, everything else about saving the planet, driving a Prius or turning off the hot water between rinses is in comparison nothing more than pandering to the "feel good about yourself" industry.

    If you really want to make for a better planet, take the blinders off and realize a trend line of less consumption is the only way. With the current trend of 1) population growth 2) standard of living increases (read consumption increases) less people is the only way to reverse the consumption trend line. Nothing else will matter.

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    So - if you bale your own cardboard, is there any market to sell it?
    Or is it a "will haul away fro free" type market, and you don't have to burn or dumpster it, and feel better about yourself in the end?

    Or worse, doo you have to pay to git it hauled out?


    --------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Here is a good green plan..Knock down all the houses and then rebuild all to be facing, and just the right angle to the sun for solar.

    I know by the time we make payback humans will be extinct.. but who cares it is the thought and good feelings that count.

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    Looking at the sun for heat, or looking away for cooling?
    Which way is right?


    -------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stirling View Post
    With all of these environments “green plans” what happened to reduce reuse recycle?

    In school (90’s) they preached the 3 R’s
    It was never real.

    Just some BS made up by nontechnical idiots and propagated by elementary school teachers. Highly impressionable preteens ate that shit up.

    In reality, society does and always has viewed minimalism as something for weirdo barefooted hippies.

    CONSUME MOAR

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    My boy (and his wife) seem to be very much minimalists.
    Not sure that they are actively pursuing that, just seem to be living it - for the most part...


    ----------

    One of my guys' has mentioned once that it is obvious that I hate waste. (to be wastefull)
    Don't we all?
    Maybe not?


    I hate to toss stuff into the dumpster, that's fer sure!
    For one - if it is burnable - that will git hoarded until the time is right to have a big farr out in the field.


    I really am all about the 3 R's.

    I have a tote with the top ripped off for [crushed] pop cans.
    I used to use a gaylord, butby the time that it would be full, the bottom would be havin' pups.
    The tote has been a god send for that!



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    I don't think modern folks think of it as waste, they simply want the latest and greatest and are constantly trading up with electronic stuff , cars, etc and giving the old other stuff away to make room for more of the latest and greatest. The buy it once and keep it forever is for the
    old grey haired folks, hell, we might even repair ir a few times before we give up on it where you could just go buy a cheap one because it is shiny, followed by another and another. And you pay for it with a credit card so it's not like it costs anything

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    ...
    The only way to avoid a future of declining standard of living brought about by scarcity of resources and pollution, is everybody pushing government policies toward population decline. In high wealth nations the policy has to stop immigration and shrink populations. This is the only practical thing that will have any meaningful effect.

    All the rest of the BS, everything else about saving the planet, driving a Prius or turning off the hot water between rinses is in comparison nothing more than pandering to the "feel good about yourself" industry.

    If you really want to make for a better planet, take the blinders off and realize a trend line of less consumption is the only way. With the current trend of 1) population growth 2) standard of living increases (read consumption increases) less people is the only way to reverse the consumption trend line. Nothing else will matter.
    I agree with your reasoning, with one significant change: it's possible to increase population and reduce consumption. Given that population control is a nonstarter (can you imagine trying to foist that on a population who won't wear masks?), it's pretty much the only hope.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neilho View Post
    ... it's pretty much the only hope.
    Not to worry. Mom Nature will take care of this. She always does ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by neilho View Post
    I agree with your reasoning, with one significant change: it's possible to increase population and reduce consumption. .
    I think that statement is true, but not while maintaining or improving standards of living. Increasing population while at least maintaining the standard of living cannot decrease consumption as by any metric standard of living is the very definition of more consumption (more people having running water, heated A/C houses, cars, using the roads, entertainment, better/fresher food, travel, appliances, whatever).

    My point isn't in support of Malthusian theory (although Malthus was undeniable correct, its simply matter how far out you care to look) that with one more person we're going to starve to death. Instead its about standard of living. Its an undeniable equation that resources are finite, increases in population increase demand, increased demand with a (at some point) inelastic supply equals higher prices equals less to go around.

    Given that population control is a nonstarter (can you imagine trying to foist that on a population who won't wear masks?), it's pretty much the only hope
    The solution is not at all draconian population control. In fact in high consumption nations the populations would control themselves were not for government intervention - immigration, tax incentives for reproducing etc. People in wealthy nations don't have 6 kids (mostly). However for the politicians, pop growth is the most obvious solution to addressing budget shortfalls, overspending (let there be more tax payers) and endears them to business (expanding markets makes it easier to hit growth targets). Meanwhile, the cost to all of us is ignored - increased consumption, high prices/more scarce resources, less functional urban areas etc.

    People should realize that quality of life (both standard of living and intangibles like cleaner air, and less traffic etc) will only come from a higher GDP per capita not a higher GDP and that in many ways increasing the number of people degrades the quality of life

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