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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    I think that statement is true, but not while maintaining or improving standards of living.
    Except that it is. You just have to make things more efficiently. Making things longer lasting would also help a lot, so you don't have to keep replacing them.

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    Things are made to throw away. Who wants some old-fashioned thing that looks like it was made two years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    Things are made to throw away. Who wants some old-fashioned thing that looks like it was made two years ago.
    A lot of people, if you look at 'sporty' cars. Puffed-up versions of sixties muscle cars are all over the place.

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  5. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    I think that statement is true, but not while maintaining or improving standards of living. Increasing population while at least maintaining the standard of living cannot decrease consumption as by any metric standard of living is the very definition of more consumption (more people having running water, heated A/C houses, cars, using the roads, entertainment, better/fresher food, travel, appliances, whatever).

    My point isn't in support of Malthusian theory (although Malthus was undeniable correct, its simply matter how far out you care to look) that with one more person we're going to starve to death. Instead its about standard of living. Its an undeniable equation that resources are finite, increases in population increase demand, increased demand with a (at some point) inelastic supply equals higher prices equals less to go around.



    The solution is not at all draconian population control. In fact in high consumption nations the populations would control themselves were not for government intervention - immigration, tax incentives for reproducing etc. People in wealthy nations don't have 6 kids (mostly). However for the politicians, pop growth is the most obvious solution to addressing budget shortfalls, overspending (let there be more tax payers) and endears them to business (expanding markets makes it easier to hit growth targets). Meanwhile, the cost to all of us is ignored - increased consumption, high prices/more scarce resources, less functional urban areas etc.

    People should realize that quality of life (both standard of living and intangibles like cleaner air, and less traffic etc) will only come from a higher GDP per capita not a higher GDP and that in many ways increasing the number of people degrades the quality of life
    It has been proven again and again that if you educate women, they have fewer children.
    Globally, if we spent the money to make sure everybody got a high school education, the population problem would take care of itself.
    We see this already in higher income countries- both Japan and Italy have been into negative population growth for some time.

    here is one link, but there are tons more studies online, going back decades. Its a simple fix the benefits everybody.

    Female Education and Childbearing: A Closer Look at the Data

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    It has been proven again and again that if you educate women, they have fewer children.
    I noted that in wealthy countries the birth rate would take care of itself, except our politicians actively put in place policies to grow the population for the aforementioned and imo sleazy/nefarious reasons.

    However I question the assertion that it has been proven there is causality. Correlation for sure. Its imo much more likely that prosperity causes the lowering of the birth rate, but of course education and prosperity feed off one another so there is a strong correlation between education/birthrate.

    While its pop. growth in high consumption countries that is the greatest threat to the planet and our standard of living, It might be more effective in poor countries to promote and freely distribute birth control and educate so that superstition has less of an influence. That or get the superstition leaders to go pro birth control

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    While its pop. growth in high consumption countries that is the greatest threat to the planet and our standard of living, It might be more effective in poor countries to promote and freely distribute birth control and educate so that superstition has less of an influence. That or get the superstition leaders to go pro birth control

    We can't even promote sex ed and birth control in America without the far right going nuts so....

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeachMePlease View Post
    We can't even promote sex ed and birth control in America without the far right going nuts so....
    If it was just the far right it'd probably be okay, but look at the last election - almost 50% of voters. Eek.

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    Male fertility has dropped 40-60% in the last 40-50 years, I forget the exact details. The only detail I remember is if it is extrapolated out it will be zero in 2045. Yeah, I know, you can't believe everything but it is a worrisome trend.

    The problem with limiting population growth is national debts will then spiral out of control.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidScott View Post
    Male fertility has dropped 40-60% in the last 40-50 years, I forget the exact details. The only detail I remember is if it is extrapolated out it will be zero in 2045. Yeah, I know, you can't believe everything but it is a worrisome trend.

    The problem with limiting population growth is national debts will then spiral out of control.


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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    Except that it is. You just have to make things more efficiently. Making things longer lasting would also help a lot, so you don't have to keep replacing them.
    And that is what a rational society would do but it's poison to modern business models based on constant consumption and replacement.

    Our ancestors darned socks and performed other clothing repairs, made do, reused things and in general had frugal habits, largely because they had to. Now many of us have a lifestyle based on always having something new, largely fueled by easy credit.

    PS: An Australian team successfully demonstrated processing mixed plastics, the bane of recycling, back into petroleum. Despite what the "zero carbon" crowd claim, oil based products will be with us for some time and reprocessing the plastics would reduce demand for imported oil and the resulting feedstock can be processed into diesel, gasoline, lubricants, or even virgin plastics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeachMePlease View Post
    We can't even promote sex ed and birth control in America without the far right going nuts so....
    Bullshit. Most parents don't have a problem with basic sex ed. What they object to is all this focus on LGBTQ+++++++ stuff that now explores "transexuality" in depth for grade school children. When public schools start teaching middle school students about things like licking anuses, "fisting", and other fringe practices parents draw the line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Bullshit. Most parents don't have a problem with basic sex ed.
    What planet do you live on ? Is the weather good there ?

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    Post Deleted - error

    (accidentally hit quote instead of edit while adding PS: to post # 50)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    And that is what a rational society would do but it's poison to modern business models based on constant consumption and replacement.

    Our ancestors darned socks and performed other clothing repairs, made do, reused things and in general had frugal habits, largely because they had to. Now many of us have a lifestyle based on always having something new, largely fueled by easy credit.

    PS: An Australian team successfully demonstrated processing mixed plastics, the bane of recycling, back into petroleum. Despite what the "zero carbon" crowd claim, oil based products will be with us for some time and reprocessing the plastics would reduce demand for imported oil and the resulting feedstock can be processed into diesel, gasoline, lubricants, or even virgin plastics.

    I am sure that there is some of that, but for the most part, manufacturing will produce whatever the consumer wants.
    And some times it is actually cheaper/service life to produce a consumable rather than a repairable unit + the costs and downtime of the repair.


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    The actual experts say the green thing is a bunch of Sh..........enaganias (fake newa).

    Cow farts, coal and oil are not to blame for more than a couple of percent, and 97% is from nature.

    Sounds like we should ask a donkey how to run a lathe and make bank/parts on the "He Haws."

    Save the world by driving around the block throwing 20 dollar bills out the window.

    REF.. What the experts say: New sun-driven cooling period of Earth ‘not far off’ - YouTube

    Another mis-thought: Take a bath/shower only once a week so some children in Africa may have more water.

    One truth: Square surface grinding wheels would last longer than round ones.

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    Here is a clean coal energy power station, but nobody talks about clean coal when we can let China have our low price fuel.

    A Coal-Fired Thermoelectric Power Plant

    Lowest priced stuff from China and India may be part of the reason things get so thrown away.

    like the green lathes, likely people don't expect them to last 20 - 50 years.
    Last edited by michiganbuck; 07-28-2021 at 11:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    Here is a clean coal energy power station, but nobody talks about clean coal when we can let China have our low price fuel.

    A Coal-Fired Thermoelectric Power Plant

    Lowest priced stuff from China and India may be part of the reason things get so thrown away.

    like the green laths, likely people don't expect them to last 20 - 50 years.
    Absolutely cheap throwaway stuff from overseas is a major cause. Other than major appliances there are no repairs offered or even repair parts. Within warranty they swap it out for a new one but after that it's either improvised repair or throw it away. Years ago I worked with a guy who bought some cheap Tenma test equipment and was shocked when he found out not only were there no replacement parts but many of the components they used were not available through normal channels because they varied just enough from industry standards. As much FORCED obsolescence as planned obsolescence. The oddball components were only available from China in 10,000 plus quantities. And that is TYPICAL of how China does business.

    The big issue is what do we do with the old "Stuff". Right now something like less than 1% of plastic gets recycled and the rest either goes into landfills or gets burned to generate electricity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    Here is a clean coal energy power station, but nobody talks about clean coal when we can let China have our low price fuel.

    A Coal-Fired Thermoelectric Power Plant

    Lowest priced stuff from China and India may be part of the reason things get so thrown away.

    like the green lathes, likely people don't expect them to last 20 - 50 years.
    Linky looks like a normal plant, maybe linky is bad ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    We see this already in higher income countries- both Japan and Italy have been into negative population growth for some time.
    [/url]
    And given the current trajectory these cultures will cease to exist in 50 years or so. How is significant negative population growth good? Furthermore I don't buy that it's education that causes this it's materialism that follows economic prosperity.

    Not to worry about population growth. A real pandemic not this pansy ass covid thing or a communist dictator will come along and wipe out tens of millions.

    I haven't read this whole thread very well but really the whole reuse recycle thing is completely flawed because the biggest volume of crap is plastic with little value in the beginning. If you go to the dump here in our little town it really gives perspective on what a disaster this is. Very discouraging. How can we pay people to process this in a way that it can be reused? Can't! I don't know how but i've always thought that the focus ought to be in designing and manufacturing more durable goods. That doesn't excite the lefty billionaires either. They would much rather focus on making some gizmo that will be out of date or dead in a few years so they can sell another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Deal View Post
    I don't know how but i've always thought that the focus ought to be in designing and manufacturing more durable goods. That doesn't excite the lefty billionaires either. They would much rather focus on making some gizmo that will be out of date or dead in a few years so they can sell another.
    Yes - Globalization, and commercialization don't give a flying hoot about recycling!
    Beat it out, stack it high, and sell it!
    From what i've read (UK = limited info because BoZo won't actually say much about what he's signed and committed to) looks like his "green new agenda" is massive contracts for big global companies...


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