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why do machine builders build for others

Jason H

Stainless
Joined
Mar 29, 2006
Location
Los Angeles, CA.
So we have an internal debate going here and I need some help. I am in sewing so there are two types of automation builders for me. Those that know automation but don't know the intricacies of sewing, and those that are sewing machine specific but don't know much about current technologies.

All of this leads to my question, if someone is a great machine builder, why are they not running their machines for themselves? I get pitched automated setups quite often, for insane prices, with insane features, but if it is so great, why are they selling it????? load it up, turn it on, and compete with me.

For someone to spend $$$ on a machine, they have to be making a lot more in return.

With all of this in my head I have been taking a lot of time and energy learning what I need to build in house all my requirements. Some non believers think I am spending too much time so I need to know why it is best to keep it in house versus sub this out.

Thanks

jason
 
There might be a huge gulf between knowing how to integrate automation and knowing how to compete in the cut-throat textile industry. Two completely different skill sets.
Some folks might know how to do both, some might be good at one or the other or neither.
Owning, or knowing how to make a sewing machine does not make you a competitive fabric supplier. And knowing how to compete for the business does not make you an expert on automation.

Now, it is interesting that there are no recognizable names in the textile automation business. Are there?

So, the questions you need to consider to answer your internal debate, are:
What is Your skill set? And what are you missing, and can you find someone who has what you are missing to leverage their talents? Can you afford what they have to offer? Can you do better on your own? Is there an un-filled niche in textile automation? Are you prepared to branch out, and fill that niche?

I think that looking at these questions (for a start) will help to resolve which way to go, that makes sense.
 
There are a few of the old timers that have sold their company to those who will take it over, or have kids that have taken over.

New York Sewing Machines Inc. and Industrial Automated Sewing Machines & Sewing Equipment, Sewing Machine Parts are good examples of the old school guys.

You make a good point about the cut throat nature and lack of available machine builders. IF someone did have a major break through in machine design, and they are in the business of selling machines, it is highly likely that they are going to sell it to me and my competitor. Now I am back to square one against my competition as we may buy at the same price for the raw materials ( cotton is just like steel ).

My thought is that any advancement we make in design becomes a competitive advantage. Not sure how this plays out in the rest of the automation market.

Jason
 
Here is an example of the new style builder:

Automatex - Industrial Automation World Leader

at $500K for a simple machine, I have a though time justifying it. Sure the qty they sell are low, and R&D costs are high, i get that. Surley as a company they could make a hell of a lot more money running the machines versus building them.

A question that comes to mind is why would a machine builder not give away the machine and get a royalty on each product made off their machine?

Jason
 
So we have an internal debate going here and I need some help. I am in sewing so there are two types of automation builders for me. Those that know automation but don't know the intricacies of sewing, and those that are sewing machine specific but don't know much about current technologies.

All of this leads to my question, if someone is a great machine builder, why are they not running their machines for themselves? I get pitched automated setups quite often, for insane prices, with insane features, but if it is so great, why are they selling it????? load it up, turn it on, and compete with me.

For someone to spend $$$ on a machine, they have to be making a lot more in return.

With all of this in my head I have been taking a lot of time and energy learning what I need to build in house all my requirements. Some non believers think I am spending too much time so I need to know why it is best to keep it in house versus sub this out.

Thanks.
jason(quote)


Simple, machine builders are good at building machines. Might not be worth a hoot at manufacturing whoozits. But they can build machines, sell them to you, and so doing, they employ their strongpoints, make a living, and allow you to do the stuff that keeps them in business, and everybody eats. Called a symbiotic relationship. If they made the machine, and then produced the product that it makes, they'd need to be good at both disciplines, as well as marketing the other product. Nobody is good at everything, and we have a tendency to specialize in what we're good at. Which is good. This way, everybody can do his thing, and the world goes round and round.
Plus, machine builders are all crotchety old farts who only like to make chips.(that'll stir up a response, you watch)
 
A question that comes to mind is why would a machine builder not give away the machine and get a royalty on each product made off their machine?
If we're still talking about sewing, the short answer is pretty simple. The industry is conservative. When a shop or factory buys a sewing machine (or loom, or cutter, or whatever) they buy it outright. No hour meters, no operation counters, and no auditor coming by to read the meter and figure out the monthly charges. Just like metalworking tools, there are lots of 25-50 year old sewing machines still going strong.

Would you buy a machining center or a screw machine if you had to pay not only the lease on the machine, but a usage fee? What kind of outrageous improvement (over your competition) in productivity would that machine have to provide to justify the direct increase in cost? (Not to mention the intrusion into your business operations.)

If you're the machinery maker, how are you going to get the usage numbers? Require the machine to be hooked up to the internet or a telephone line periodically to operate? Not a chance of that happening. Send auditors out to China, Thailand, Columbia, Mexico and the occasional US location to read the meters? Probably not very economic. Have your local dealers or sales reps do the job? They might do it, if they got paid to do it. And once you get your usage numbers, how are you going to collect your royalties?

In the office machinery world (think big copiers), it was not unusual to have to pay usage charges in addition to the upfront machine price. There were three reasons for that. First, it gave the sales forces of Xerox, IBM and their competitors a gimmick to battle their way in the customer's door by lowering the nominal machine price; second, most customers leased the equipment and did not buy it outright, and third, it raised revenue to compensate for a fairly expensive service organization. Industries that make outright sales and have less, shall we say, aggressive sales forces and ubitquitous services forces generally don't play such games with pricing.

Surley as a company they could make a hell of a lot more money running the machines versus building them.
There is just so much more to running a successful sewn products business than having a fleet of high-volume machines. Why didn't Brown&Sharpe get rich making automobiles? Pratt&Whitney did make aircraft engines, but the P&W aircraft and machine tool businesses were distinct businesses.

First off, what would such a super-automation company produce? Their own product? So, in addition to doing automation and mechanical design they now have to be fashion designers? They have to market and sell garments, bags and other sewn products rather than fancy machines?

Well, in fact most factories and cut-make-trim shops don't make their own product. Manufacturers (the designers who own the product intellectual property and market and sell the goods) contract with factories and CMT shops to have the product made. But nobody contracts with a shop full of automatic machines. There is a wide range of services specific to sewn products, like sample making, production pattern making, local material sourcing, logistics integration, EDI order and production integration, etc., etc., etc.

Having a factory full of machines, even with operators standing by to feed and care for them, does nothing for these critical services. The only manufacturers who would go to such a factory are looking for the absolute lowest cost production, and manage all the other services themselves. But for the price of one $500K fancy-schmacy super-automated machine, I can buy outright 300 conventional sewing machines and feed the third-world operators needed to run them for a year.

So the short answer is: It's a totally different business and being good at making machinery is no help at being good at making sewn products. The slightly longer answer is: Reducing production costs through automation isn't sufficient. You are too expensive to win the race to the bottom of naked production costs, and you don't provide any of the services required of a value-added factory or CMT shop.

Disclosure: I write the occasional technical article for Fashion-Incubator.
 
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Machine builders build and sell machines because they are machine builders.

We don't like a production environment, we like the new challenge every time.

In house automation is possible, but you need to have staff that can do it. That can be expensive unless you have some crossover people. You see in house automation a lot in places like high tech manufacturing, where the entire shop floor is new and evolving.

It's a mindset thing really, like I said machine builders build machines because it's what we do.
 
Thanks everyone for the responses, it does make some more sense. I think I have tunnel vision as a manufacturer. I have a mentor that was extremely successful in building innovative machines for himself to operate so I only have an influence in one direction. As long as people are happy, all the more power then.

Thanks

Jason
 
Division of labor, and specialization. Do what you are good at, get better at it, and specialize. That's why Caterpillar doesn't do excavating. There are times where building your own equipment can give you a competitive or financial edge, large rigging contractors come to mind immediately, many of them build their own trailers and etc. Racers do also, to keep their secrets in-house as well as to improve their game. The problem is that it spreads your resources thinner, in your case you'd need a machinery division and a textile division, with all the communication issues and etc. that go with that. Small firms can integrate such enterprises better than large ones, that's why a small firm can gain an edge on older larger competitors.
 
We do our own in-house automation (and a lot of machine building) because of the following reasons (and more):

1. Nobody knows how to make or handle our parts like we do. And we aren't paying them to learn it either on top of the cost of the project, so it's a stalemate there....
2. We develop our own proprietary processes to try and beat the competition. We are automotive, another cut-throat commodity business.
3. We have complete control over and own the process and machines / automation.
4. We service our own equipment, so there aren't many "black boxes" that we have to call a service tech for (and wait on one to be available.)
5. It's faster to build it in-house.
6. It's cheaper to build it in-house (much, much cheaper, especially when you are technically classified as a MTB by your vendors..)

The problem is, in order to execute it well, you need resources.
At least one really good EE, and an ME.
 
Why do machine builders not run production?

Would you buy a machine from someone competing with you for work?

The amount of time it takes to develop a machine won't pay off if you only build one.
You need multiple sales to cover the development costs. You loose your butt on the first one.
Bob
 
Why do machine builders not run production?

The cheapest R&D is a customer saying:

"I wanna a....."
"I saw a ....."
"If you had......"
"I'm gonna drop this off, and see if you can...."

Machine builders have customers with wish lists; that keeps the builders connected to the real world.
 
Machine builders have customers with wish lists; that keeps the builders connected to the real world.

Except of course that 75% of what the customer wants is impractical/cost prohibitive/to be delivered on Friday.

The look on the face of a client when they get the quote is priceless...they always forget that custom machinery does not get the economies of scale that consumer items do.

They also forget that it takes 1 woman 40 weeks to make a baby, but two women can't do it in 20.
 
We started out doing nothing but control systems - primarily for retrofitting existing machines in the food packaging / paper converting industry. We also did a lot of work for other machine builders helping them with controls (Flow - Dynamic Waterjet, Janicki 5-Axis machines, large veneer lathes for plywood production, flying saw systems for Trus-Joist / Boise Cascade I-beams, etc.)

The retrofits required motors to be mounted, gearboxes sized, drivetrain details worked out - often converting a european machine to SAE standard NEMA motors / gearboxes / mounts / etc. We developed the ability to design / manufacture these components in-house.

As an extention of that ability, now fully half of our business is custom machine building and we deal mostly with the Glass Container Industry and the Paper converting industry. No way we could put together a glass plant capable of melting 15 tons/hour to feed an IS Machine . . . but we can build the robotic actuators that pull the freshly molded bottles out of the molds and put them on a conveyor . . . and we can build the stacker that puts 700+ bpm into the annealing oven.

We are now on the Rolodex (or digital facimile of the Rolodex) of several large companies in the Paper and Glass industries and we get calls to help solve quality problems with products and also to "fix" other machine builders machines via. retrofit or reconfiguring the machine mechanically + new controls.

I had a good customer call me this week to ask if it was OK if he shipped me a machine that he had just purchased from another company to audit it and make improvements to it. The OEM for this machine has been building it this way for 20 years and doesn't want to mess with improvements - we may well get the contract for all future machines if our efforts to improve this one go well.

I have no interest in running a "production" business - I like the variety and like to be in a position where people come to me with production problems to solve. Fortunately - most (but not all!) of our customers understand what it costs to do a good job.

We are rarely the low price competitor - and in fact have several machines that are upwards of 2x more costly than our nearest competitor - but, if you have a choice between paying $150k for a machine or $300k for a machine - each with a 1 year ROI . . . which machine are you going to want to own after the first year?
 
might fit in a shipping container if broken into modules - it is arranged in an L-shape.

When I think about the thousands of different kinds of specialty machines . . . they are usually a small cog in a big process that includes all kinds of other inputs.

We do mostly servo driven equipment so we see a lot of machine retrofits where a single motor and geartrain, indexers, cams, etc. are replaced by a dozen or so servo axes - push button product change overs, 100% increase in production rates - built in torque monitoring for figuring out wear. Jam detection, logical alarming with clear explanations of what to do to fix the problem. Less mechanical wear and tear - etc.

Looking at a flying saw now that has an 8000 lb carriage assembly including a cross cut saw with a 15HP spindle that has to zip back and forth and cross cut a plywood / LVL billet - fun stuff! :D
 
might fit in a shipping container if broken into modules - it is arranged in an L-shape.

When I think about the thousands of different kinds of specialty machines . . . they are usually a small cog in a big process that includes all kinds of other inputs.

We do mostly servo driven equipment so we see a lot of machine retrofits where a single motor and geartrain, indexers, cams, etc. are replaced by a dozen or so servo axes - push button product change overs, 100% increase in production rates - built in torque monitoring for figuring out wear. Jam detection, logical alarming with clear explanations of what to do to fix the problem. Less mechanical wear and tear - etc.

Looking at a flying saw now that has an 8000 lb carriage assembly including a cross cut saw with a 15HP spindle that has to zip back and forth and cross cut a plywood / LVL billet - fun stuff! :D

Do you use Bosch?
They kind of invented the electronic line shaft and caming.
 
Automating sewing factory machinery is a pretty small market. And one that has virtually vanished in the USA and Europe.
In Asia, they tend to throw bodies at the problem, but I am sure there are manufacturers in China.

But when you have only a few, old, conservative companies, they often have institutional resistance to change.

I was in a factory in Italy a few years ago, run by a group of guys who started out, in the 60's, young, hungry, and willing to try anything- they were actually blacksmiths to begin with.
They started making apple washing machines, as there wasnt really anything available in Italy to small processors, and a rep told them that the patents for the machines that make aspirin tablets were about to expire- this was probably 72 or so, and the vast majority of all the tablet making machines in the world came from one German company that hadnt changed its design since the thirties.
These Italian guys redesigned the machines from the ground up, eliminated a few problems that the Germans never thought WERE problems, and, by 1980, had a third of the world market.

Looking at the market from the outside, you would have thought nobody had a chance- every major pharma company had been buying from the Germans for 50 years.
But the Italians made much better, modern machines, and have kept innovating every year ever since- the new machines are amazing- they take powders, make tablets, package them, even print the wrappers and plastic wrap the packages with security hologram or other tamper proof labelling, all in one machine that is maybe 4' x 6' x 20'. The germans still dont see any reason to change, and to do the same thing with German machines takes 3 machines, 3 times the size, 3 times the price.

I was in another Italian company that, similarly, has cornered the market in both injection molding machines for soda bottle caps, and automated ceramic tile making machines. In both cases, there was established competitor with name recognition, who just plain refused to change or upgrade.

Institutional stodginess can set in to an older company, and just be impossible to shake.
 
Jam detection, logical alarming with clear explanations of what to do to fix the problem.

Sounds like a friendly design.

A few years ago, I spent time operating a LanTech pallet wrapper. Well, pushing pallets toward it :)

When it refused to work, it didn't give any hint as to why. Sometimes a tech would show up and plug in a laptop and try to figure it out.


I thought "If only the machine had a text display, and would step through the code...." as BASIC programs would allow.

This was a few years ago, perhaps unfair to expect a display on the machine. A display would have made troubleshooting an operator function, rather than "call the vendor".
 
My thought is that any advancement we make in design becomes a competitive advantage. Not sure how this plays out in the rest of the automation market.

Jason

at $500K for a simple machine, I have a though time justifying it. Sure the qty they sell are low, and R&D costs are high, i get that.

I realize I'm coming in a bit late, but I think you've answered your own question. $500K is the cost of your aforementioned competitive advantage and you don't even have to build it in house.

As you said, if a new product is cheap, everyone buys it and you're back to square one. If you want a competitive advantage you have to put out the cash to get ahead. Buy one machine from someone who specializes in it or add a whole new business to your business, then learn how to run all the new stuff and make a few mistakes. Add it all up and the price might not look too bad.
 








 
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