Caz 360 HBX Repairs
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 59
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Michigan
    Posts
    65
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    16

    Default Caz 360 HBX Repairs

    I am part of a shared shop and one of our members purchased a Cazeneuve 360 HBX that is in great shape. We used it very briefly but it is raining so much oil that we really can't use it. We knew it had this issue when we bought it. So, it is time to replace the variator seals. I have read all the various threads here in the forum. In addition, the person we bought it from has extensive experience with Caz machines (he has owned many of them) and has done this repair before and will help us when he can.

    I figured that I would start a thread here to perhaps share our experience with the group and hopefully be able pick your brains when necessary. There are a few projects that need to be done with this machine: replace the upper and lower variator seals, replace the lead screw tube seals (one leaks a steady drip when running), fix a sticky Metric/Whitworth engagement, and refurbish and install an old/damaged Caz taper attachment.

    Attached are some pictures of this beautiful machine:








  2. Likes JHOLLAND1, Renardiere, Colt45, jz79, ole.steen and 1 others liked this post
  3. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Michigan
    Posts
    65
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    16

    Default Lower variator removal help

    I am beginning to disassemble the variators to get to the seals. I have the lower cover off and am able to unscrew the ring that is on the end of the shaft but not sure what comes off next. Nothing appears loose or easily pry-able. Any idea what next?

    Also, in another thread there is a picture of the lower cover (I think) and it has a white plastic ring of some sort in it. Our lathe does not have this, should it? Our lathe is was built in 1986.

    The picture in post 18 of this thread: My Caz 360 Project

    -Tom





  4. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Country
    NORWAY
    Posts
    621
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    29
    Likes (Received)
    68

    Default

    This lathe is simply beautiful! It cannot have been used much since the eighties. More likely than not the user found it to be "too french"��. The metal and paint ages nicely, but the polyurethane oil-seals do not weather well. Mind you these lathes were seldom bone dry even when new.

    The thing that comes off next is the large-ish , cylindrical part held on by the nut in your hand with the ridge for throwing off leakage inside the aluminum housing. It needs a firm hand or a light puller to come off, but nothing excessive. The plastic ring is missing. Its purpose is to direct leakage splash inside the aluminum cover as well. If it isn't there the leakage outside will be greater, and some of it will end up on the belt and pulleys leading to more slippage. Inside the cylinder you will se a sealing ring on the end of the left/ outer pulley part, and when you pull that part off there is another seal on the inside as well. Good luck! Ole

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Michigan
    Posts
    65
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ole.steen View Post
    This lathe is simply beautiful! It cannot have been used much since the eighties. More likely than not the user found it to be "too french"��. The metal and paint ages nicely, but the polyurethane oil-seals do not weather well. Mind you these lathes were seldom bone dry even when new.
    Ole,
    Thank you for your response. Glad to see you are still around here. I read the old threads (multiple times) but will still likely have questions. The machine is in beautiful condition. It was one of two the owner had in his shop so it didn't have heavy use. He also completely disassembled and painted the lathe some years back, hence the condition of the paint. His shop is full of machines in great condition and he keeps them that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by ole.steen View Post
    The thing that comes off next is the large-ish , cylindrical part held on by the nut in your hand with the ridge for throwing off leakage inside the aluminum housing. It needs a firm hand or a light puller to come off, but nothing excessive. The plastic ring is missing. Its purpose is to direct leakage splash inside the aluminum cover as well. If it isn't there the leakage outside will be greater, and some of it will end up on the belt and pulleys leading to more slippage. Inside the cylinder you will se a sealing ring on the end of the left/ outer pulley part, and when you pull that part off there is another seal on the inside as well. Good luck! Ole
    Ok, thanks for the hint. I put a gear puller on that large-ish cylindrical part but didn't want to pry too hard. I will try again with a bit more force. I was wondering if my machine didn't ever have the plastic ring. There is a gap in the picture that PastyPies posted that is not on my lathe (see picture below where i've inset PastyPies image on mine). It looks as if the white plastic ring slips into that gap. It would not be able to do that on my machine... Could they have changed the design at some point?

    -Tom


  6. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Country
    NORWAY
    Posts
    621
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    29
    Likes (Received)
    68

    Default

    Tom! Yes I see. It is of course possible that they have omitted the ring, at least the slot where it went in isn't there anymore. I don't remember if I have seen a machine this late (80-ies) up close. Mind you, I sold the Caz in 2013 with a very healthy profit and bought a Schaublin 135. All I say is by memory. Underneat the cylinder is the outer oil seal, and under the seal is the connection pin mentioned in earlier posts. Careful with that! You have to pull the pin out some in order to withdraw the outer sheave half to get to the inner seal. The pin is threaded for purchase to pull it (M4 or 5?), with a slide hammer or similar. On the end of the pin is a small wheel, rolling in a track in the valve body inside the spindle. When refitting care is necessary when replacing the pin so you hit the track and so that the little wheel doesn't fall off, and the pin doesn't go too deep in the hole. Take care to note how deep is it driven before removal.

    Ole

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Michigan
    Posts
    65
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ole.steen View Post
    Tom! Yes I see. It is of course possible that they have omitted the ring, at least the slot where it went in isn't there anymore. I don't remember if I have seen a machine this late (80-ies) up close. Mind you, I sold the Caz in 2013 with a very healthy profit and bought a Schaublin 135. All I say is by memory. Underneat the cylinder is a seal, and under the seal is the connection pin mentioned in earlier posts. Careful with that! You have to pull the pin out some in order to withdraw the outer sheave half. The pin is threaded for purchase to pull it, with a slide hammer or similar.

    Ole
    I am stuck at this point. I cannot get the large outer cylinder off. I put a gear puller on it and put a metal plate across the face of the threaded area to push on. I turned it until it was very tight and I was worried I might break something and nothing moved. So, I then tried putting the center of the gear puller into the center of the shaft. The gear puller center foot that I have fits perfectly onto the chamfer in the center and is slightly bigger diameter than that internal bore. I then tightened again. I was about to stop and I heard a slight pop. But it didn't look like the cylinder moved towards me. So, I removed the gear puller and I see that the center shaft has moved back(I think). This doesn't seem good...

    Also, I thought I'd try to see if that spring washer/ring thing in the middle would move but with very little pressure the tip of it broke off (as you can see in the picture).




  8. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Country
    NORWAY
    Posts
    621
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    29
    Likes (Received)
    68

    Default

    Tom!
    Ooops.. That thing in the center there is the valve body, and I don't think it likes being pushed. Hopefully the transfer pin I was talking about isn't bent or otherwise destroyed. Why the cylinder doesn't come off beats me. Here is a drawing, the best I have I am afraid.: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AixuXkj7rT9JjFFwH5A3pAwIBAOq You could possibly try to reapply the puller (on the outer shaft end like your first try), tighten puller like you did, and then apply heat with reasonable care to the hub. You could also get you friend with the great experience to come by!

    Ole

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Michigan
    Posts
    65
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ole.steen View Post
    Tom!
    Ooops.. That thing in the center there is the valve body, and I don't think it likes being pushed. Hopefully the transfer pin I was talking about isn't bent or otherwise destroyed. Why the cylinder doesn't come off beats me. Here is a drawing, the best I have I am afraid.: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AixuXkj7rT9JjFFwH5A3pAwIBAOq You could possibly try to reapply the puller (on the outer shaft end like your first try), tighten puller like you did, and then apply heat with reasonable care to the hub. You could also get you friend with the great experience to come by!

    Ole
    I found an old thread where a person named Itzik (in Isreal I think) said he rebuilds these machines. I was able to contact him and he said he gets them off by tapping them with a hammer while pulling on it. I put my gear puller on it and snugged it up and then tapped the perimeter with a rawhide hammer and it popped off! Yay.
    Thank you Ole and Itzik!

    The seal is very hard and non-flexible, it is definitely time to replace them.

    My friend is coming this afternoon with some tools he made that will help with the rest of the job. I hope with his help to figure out if any damage was done by pushing in the valve body.

    Once the pin is out (that is under the seal) should the pulley just slide off as well?

    -Tom




    Last edited by tome9999; 05-07-2019 at 11:07 PM. Reason: Typo

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Country
    NORWAY
    Posts
    621
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    29
    Likes (Received)
    68

    Default

    Congrats! Now you have one worry less. Yes, when the pin is out the pulley should come off rather easily. Careful with the pin, especially with the wheel on the inner end. PS: Nice pictures!!
    Ole

  11. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Michigan
    Posts
    65
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ole.steen View Post
    Congrats! Now you have one worry less. Yes, when the pin is out the pulley should come off rather easily. Careful with the pin, especially with the wheel on the inner end. PS: Nice pictures!!
    Ole
    Funny you should say that... My friend came this afternoon and we removed the rest of the mechanism. I thought I had seen the little wheel or something down in that groove after he removed the sleave covering it. But after he left I couldn't find anything and he didn't remember seeing anything there. We joked about it falling into the oil sump whose (open) hole is directly under the shaft. I went and got a magnet on a stick and sure enough I fished the wheel out of the oil sump!

    -Tom

    Last edited by tome9999; 05-07-2019 at 09:20 PM. Reason: Added image

  12. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Michigan
    Posts
    65
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    16

    Default

    A short (and apologetically shaky) video of pin removal with homemade slide hammer...


  13. Likes JHOLLAND1 liked this post
  14. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Michigan
    Posts
    65
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    16

    Default

    I have a question regarding the center of the shaft that I have either pushed in, or possibly instead I pulled the shaft off the motor shaft a bit, it is unclear which of those is the case. But regardless I want to fix it. But before I do anything else I want to understand how the pulley and that internal cylinder are attached to each other and the motor shaft...

    PastyPies changed his variator to a VFD. To do that he removed the lower pulley completely off the motor shaft (see attached pics from his old thread). To do this he must have put the ring nut back on the shaft and used a slide hammer in the pics. Does anyone know if he did this with that inner cylinder (with grooves and cutouts - see pic) inside the shaft, or was he somehow able to get that cylinder out before removing the shaft/pulley from the motor shaft?

    -Tom







    My pulley shaft:

  15. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Country
    NORWAY
    Posts
    621
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    29
    Likes (Received)
    68

    Default

    Very good, Tom! It seems to have transpired reasonably well. The slidehammer is just the thing. The pin with the wheel survived, I think that is a very good thing! Another guy (not me) had to buy a new one, I seem to remember it was around $150 or thereabouts. How this works: The speed lever on the apron works on the lever going down to the center of the lower variator. The lever moves the inner valve part with the center cover and all in and out, directing pressurized oil from the hose on the cover into the orifices inside the sheave shaft, ending up inside the outer cylinder part you took off. This causes the sheave to contract around the belt. The upper sheave is not controlled, only pressurized. When the lower sheave has contracted enough to attain the selected speed, the sheave rotates the middle valve cylinder (the part you put the puller on) by the pin and the wheel. When the sheave moves in and out the pin and wheel bears down the curved track, causing the valve cylinder to rotate. This counteracts the effect of the inner valve punger, stopping the movement in the right place. It's a feedback pin and valve. Easy, right? You can read about the headstrong and unconventional designer Henri Bruet on the english wikipedia page Cazeneuve (company). Do you have a manual? It is of course written by old Hernri, and he does his best at explaining the principles. There are a lot of unconventional solutions in this lathe, many of them very useful. The threading and feed gearing in the apron and the tailstock are two interesting sides.
    Ole

  16. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Michigan
    Posts
    65
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ole.steen View Post
    Very good, Tom! It seems to have transpired reasonably well. The slidehammer is just the thing. The pin with the wheel survived, I think that is a very good thing! Another guy (not me) had to buy a new one, I seem to remember it was around $150 or thereabouts. How this works: The speed lever on the apron works on the lever going down to the center of the lower variator. The lever moves the inner valve part with the center cover and all in and out, directing pressurized oil into the orifices inside the sheave, ending up inside the outer cylinder part you took off. This causes the sheave to contract around the belt. The upper sheave is not controlled, only pressurized. When the lower sheave has contracted enough to attain the selected speed, the sheave rotates the middle valve cylinder (the part you put the puller on) by the pin and the wheel. When the sheave moves in and out the pin and wheel bears down the curved track, causing the valve cylinder to rotate. This counteracts the effect of the inner valve punger, stopping the movement in the right place. It's a feedback pin and valve. Easy, right? You can read about the headstrong and unconventional designer Henri Bruet on the english wikipedia page Cazeneuve (company). Ole
    Ole,
    Thank you so much, that is very helpful! So, that would seem to indicate that the valve cylinder should be a (precision) sliding fit in the shaft and should come out without too much force, yes?
    -Tom

  17. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Country
    NORWAY
    Posts
    621
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    29
    Likes (Received)
    68

    Default

    That's right, but I am not sure if I remember everything. I am not sure if I ever took the valve body out. It should at least rotate some, is it stuck? Maybe it has a burr from your extraction attempt. There also may be modifications from my lathe to this. I seem to remember someone once said something about a second, inner pin... Have you tried to tap it gently, maybe outwards with the slide hammer? Maybe get it back into the position it originally had, .125" out? Another thing: Inside the cylinder there may be some corrosion, any moisture drops in the oil cannot escape. Polish the inside when you change the seals.
    Ole

  18. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Michigan
    Posts
    65
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ole.steen View Post
    That's right, but I am not sure if I remember everything. I am not sure if I ever took the valve body out. It should at least rotate some, is it stuck? Maybe it has a burr from your extraction attempt. There also may be modifications from my lathe to this. I seem to remember someone once said something about a second, inner pin... Have you tried to tap it gently, maybe outwards with the slide hammer? Maybe get it back into the position it originally had, .125" out? Another thing: Inside the cylinder there may be some corrosion, any moisture drops in the oil cannot escape. Polish the inside when you change the seals.
    Ole
    I put a pin in the slot and tapped on it very lightly with a plastic dead blow hammer and was easily able to move it back into it's original position. I probably could have moved it with my hand, it didn't take any force with the little hammer. So now the only question is whether or not that small piece I broke off on the edge of the valve body is important to the operation or not. It is a different slot than the one the pin/wheel rides in, so perhaps it is just an oil passage...?

    -Tom




  19. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Country
    NORWAY
    Posts
    621
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    29
    Likes (Received)
    68

    Default

    The piece broken off dose not look important, it faces the atmosphere, not the pressurized oil, it seems. There probably is a in pin in there somewhere that rides in the slot, or maybe it is just a pressure conduit? Can you take the whole slider out, or is something holding it back? Ole

  20. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Michigan
    Posts
    65
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ole.steen View Post
    The piece broken off dose not look important, it faces the atmosphere, not the pressurized oil, it seems.
    I agree, it doesn't look like it would matter since the oil will be coming or going through that entire area anyway. The piece I knocked off isn't restricting anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by ole.steen View Post
    There probably is a in pin in there somewhere that rides in the slot, or maybe it is just a pressure conduit?
    I looked very carefully and do not see a pin. There are several holes visible but all are through holes. If there is a pin it is hidden and on the inside out of view...

    Quote Originally Posted by ole.steen View Post
    Can you take the whole slider out, or is something holding it back? Ole
    I want to do a little more inspection of the surfaces to ensure there is no burr or anything that might score the cylinder before withdrawing it. We are going to make an expanding collet that we can insert into the valve body and use it to withdraw it straight out. That way we will be able to feel if anything is holding it up. That may happen Fri or Sat. Will report back on what I find.

    Thanks again for all your help.
    -Tom

  21. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Michigan
    Posts
    65
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    16

    Default

    Attached is a video from yesterday of the removal of the inner seal on the lower variator pulley. At first it appeared that there were multiple seals in there but it turns out it is one cup seal with an o-ring inserted in it. I had recalled someone in the forum mentioning this before.

    Also, notice the two red gaskets, or spacers, or whatever they are. I thought they were seals, but they are hard material (perhaps phenolic)and are reusable. I will clean them up and put them back with the new gasket.

    -Tom



  22. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Michigan
    Posts
    65
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    16

    Default

    Attached is another video, a continuation of the seal removal and also showing access to the sleeve, rings, and needle bearings underneath.

    -Tom



Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •