Caz 360 HBX Repairs - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ole.steen View Post
    Mind you, I sold the Caz in 2013 with a very healthy profit and bought a Schaublin 135.

    Ole
    Ole,
    I am curious how you like your Schaublin in comparison to the Caz?
    -Tom

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    Default Progress today

    So today we used an expanding collet which we turned down to fit in the center of the valve body (cylinder in the center of pulley shaft) and held in a square 5C collet block that allowed us to push/pull and turn the cylinder.

    It seemed to be hung up on something and after much inspection we could see another pin-in-wheel mechanism, similar to the one that we removed with the slide hammer. It travels in the channel that comes out the front of the valve body - the tip of which I broke off. If you carefully look down that channel when the cylinder is back in a bit you can see it. It took a bit of gentle but firm manipulation to determine the track of that channel in order to guide the wheel down it. We were then able to finally pull the cylinder free!

    I really wish there had been an image of the entire valve body available as it would have shown us how this worked. I had indeed broken that pin very likely when I pushed on it with the gear puller.

    Circled in red in a couple images along the grooves you can see a bit of galling or burr on the edges. This is towards the front where the wheels ran into the sides of the channels when the cylinder was forced backwards by the gear puller. We are going to lap the damage away. It turns out my friend has a full spare lower variator mechanism so if after cleaning up the damage and doing some measurements we decide it is too damaged to be serviceable we may use the spare. The little wheels are undamaged and we can replace the broken pin (it is a simple straight pin), and piece I broke off is inconsequential, so it just boils down to getting the nice sliding fit cleaned up.

    So for others in the future, below are images of the full cylinder.

    The last image is looking down the pulley shaft after the cylinder is removed. You can see a hex head (17 mm I believe) that holds the pulley to the tapered motor shaft. We are not going to remove this.

    The expanding internal collet we used is like this: Expanding collets - Dunham Tool expanding collet
    Collet block similar to this McMaster-Carr















  3. #23
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    Default Upper Pulley - Brake?

    The next step is to get to the seal in the upper pulley. But first I need to remove the brake. It is clamped tight to the pulley. I cannot move it with my hands at all. I am sure it was designed to clamp tight in the absence of hydraulic pressure as a fail safe.

    I've removed the hydraulic lines to it. Any ideas on how to release the tension or remove it from from the pulley? I was going to start by removing the inner wheel on the face of the box and see what I can see in there. I also wonder what that screw in the last picture underneath might do... I am in the dark here though as I haven't seen any diagrams of this brake mechanism and have no idea how it works. I am respectful of springs under tension (especially the tension that this appears to have) so I will go slow and see what I can do.

    -Tom






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    Aha! The brake on the upper variator is totally redesigned since my lathe. The box with the connections is the same.

    The brake: The purpose is that when you push the speed lever all the way past "slow", the spindle stops. In this position the belt rests on the needle- bearing sleeve in the center of the lower variator, while the motor shaft spins freely. The brake locks the upper sheave, stopping the main spindle. Very neat, you don't have to stop the motor to stop the spindle, and the action is very quick. It all needs to be adjusted properly to work! The brake used to be a bracket with brake lining sitting between the upper sheave halves, it has been replaced by a hydraulic brake, probably operated from a valve somewhere in the speed lever system.

    The box: Be very careful, easy to destroy something here. The small nut in the center sits on the end of a little, hollow spindle, and has a cone connection to the box. Remove the nut and washer. Find another longer nut with the same thread, thread it on, but leave a turn or so. Put a 3- legged gear puller over the box, and pushing (gently) on the nut, not the small spindle itself, pull the box off the cone. It will suddenly pop off , catch it before it falls an breaks on your floor. Use some gentle heat if necessary. When it all comes off you will see that the hollow center is retained inside the spindle by a circlip. You need to get the box off to get the outer sheave off to get to the (single?) oilseal inside.

    To pull off the outer sheave half (after removing the large nut), dont pull on the sheave periphery, it will break. Thread some bolts into the holes in the hub, and pull on them.

    As you may know I am a psychiatrist, and human nature excites me. It is an interesting paradox that I remember machine parts better than people I have met. Good luck! Ole

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    Quote Originally Posted by ole.steen View Post
    Aha! The brake on the upper variator is totally redesigned since my lathe. The box with the connections is the same.

    The brake: The purpose is that when you push the speed lever all the way past "slow", the spindle stops. In this position the belt rests on the needle- bearing sleeve in the center of the lower variator, while the motor shaft spins freely. The brake locks the upper sheave, stopping the main spindle. Very neat, you don't have to stop the motor to stop the spindle, and the action is very quick. It all needs to be adjusted properly to work! The brake used to be a bracket with brake lining sitting between the upper sheave halves, it has been replaced by a hydraulic brake, probably operated from a valve somewhere in the speed lever system.

    The box: Be very careful, easy to destroy something here. The small nut in the center sits on the end of a little, hollow spindle, and has a cone connection to the box. Remove the nut and washer. Find another longer nut with the same thread, thread it on, but leave a turn or so. Put a 3- legged gear puller over the box, and pushing (gently) on the nut, not the small spindle itself, pull the box off the cone. It will suddenly pop off , catch it before it falls an breaks on your floor. Use some gentle heat if necessary. When it all comes off you will see that the hollow center is retained inside the spindle by a circlip. You need to get the box off to get the outer sheave off to get to the (single?) oilseal inside.

    To pull off the outer sheave half (after removing the large nut), dont pull on the sheave periphery, it will break. Thread some bolts into the holes in the hub, and pull on them.

    As you may know I am a psychiatrist, and human nature excites me. It is an interesting paradox that I remember machine parts better than people I have met. Good luck! Ole
    Thanks Ole, I was about to go search the threads for how to remove the upper pulley, you saved me the trouble. Today with luck I will figure out how to release/remove the brake and follow your instructions for getting to the upper seal.

    The hydraulic line I removed from the brake went to a fitting on a box that looks like it might be some kind of solenoid, or it might be a mechanical equivalent of one. I didn’t look at it closely yet to see how it is activated.

    You probably missed my question to you above, but we were wondering how you think the Schaublin you have compares to the Caz? My friend who has used Caz machines most his life was pointing out its many virtues (some subtle) and wondered how the Schaublin would compare. For example, he was showing how you can rest your arm on the tailstock and manipulate the handle which is useful when doing precision drilling on the Caz. The Schaublin wheel is facing forward and does not seem to lend itself to fine control. We are both fans of fine machinery and just discussing the pluses and minuses of various designs...

    Thanks again.
    -Tom

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    Well, Tom, the Schaublin gives you a more hefty quality feel to it, it looks and feels swiss. Is it more practical? Nope. When you get used to it the threading is ok, but on the Caz it is incredible. The tailstock on my Schaublin is with a two-geared handwheel, it compares well. The whole lathe is smaller, for good and for worse. They are like Mercedes and Citroen, a small Mercedes, that is.

    The brake on the Caz is probably electro- hydraulically activated, that makes sense. It would then be easier to apply brake only after the variator has disengaged. Good to hear that you are getting along well. Are you planning to change the seals in the feedscrew cover? That used to be another leakage point. Ole

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    Quote Originally Posted by ole.steen View Post
    Well, Tom, the Schaublin gives you a more hefty quality feel to it, it looks and feels swiss. Is it more practical? Nope. When you get used to it the threading is ok, but on the Caz it is incredible. The tailstock on my Schaublin is with a two-geared handwheel, it compares well. The whole lathe is smaller, for good and for worse. They are like Mercedes and Citroen, a small Mercedes, that is.

    The brake on the Caz is probably electro- hydraulically activated, that makes sense. It would then be easier to apply brake only after the variator has disengaged. Good to hear that you are getting along well. Are you planning to change the seals in the feedscrew cover? That used to be another leakage point. Ole
    Hi Ole,
    Interesting that you sold your Caz. I guess the money was just too good to pass up eh?

    Yes, I want to replace the seals in the lead screw as well. I have one seal on the lead screw tube (far left near entry to gearbox) that leaks a constant drip when running. I could live with it and keep filling the reservoir,but it makes sense to just do all the maintenance while I'm at it.

    I now have the upper variator seal out (see next couple posts on that) and will be investigating if I can get the 3 variator seals locally. I have a quote from DMR Seals in the UK where PastyPie got his as well as Caz in France. These are my plan B and plan C if I can't find them locally.

    Then I need to figure out what seals I need for the leadscrew tube and find those as well.

    -Tom

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    Default Upper Pulley Removal - Step 1

    Made good progress today. I first followed Ole's advice and removed the variator pulley box (round-ish cover over end of pulley) using a gear puller. I removed the nut and washer, put my own (wider) nut back on to put the foot of the gear puller on. I tensioned up the gear puller and tapped the outside of the "box" with a plastic dead blow hammer. Tensioned a bit more and tapped again. The cover popped. Since the nut is on the end it can't fall off completely. Removed nut, removed "box".

    -Tom





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    Default Upper Pulley Removal - Step 2

    I had to remove the brake before going any further. I removed the inner disc in the face of the brake box with a face spanner wrench. This appears to be a pin stacked with belleville washers to create the spring tension on the brake. Loosening this relieved the pressure on the brake. I then removed the three screws holding the entire brake and bracket to the machine casting. I did this hoping to avoid re-adjusting the brake when I put it back. It looked like the screws on the underside of the box were the adjustment screws. However, when I removed the unit it slid back and forth on the bracket so those screws underneath were not tight. I don't know if they should have been tight or not (I suspect so) so when I put the brake back on I will have to figure out how to adjust it.

    -Tom





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    Default Upper Pulley Removal - Step 3

    Back to the pulley. Removed the c-clip inside the nut. Removed the nut with a 36mm socket. Removed the washer. This reveals the face of pulley with two threaded holes...

    -Tom








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    Next spent some time making this slide hammer...



    Then used it to get the pulley off...


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    And voila, access to the seal.



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    Quote Originally Posted by ole.steen View Post
    The brake on the Caz is probably electro- hydraulically activated, that makes sense. It would then be easier to apply brake only after the variator has disengaged.
    Attached are two pictures, front side and back side of the control mechanism for the brake. The same device feeds the variators as well...



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    Well done, Tom! Everything looking good to me.

    The oil supply is totally redesigned, and obviously much improved. On my lathe the oil pump is mounted on the right end side of the main motor shaft, there is no extra oil pump motor. The oil filter is a «stocking over a steel cage». One obvious advantage is that the brake can not release without warning. There probably is a failsafe microswithch on the speed lever. Nice! The only obvious advantage I can see with the earlier models is that prior to sometime in the seventies the base was cast, not welded. Ole

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    Tom! Are you sure the o-ring on top of the oil seals are original, and not some attempt at a "quick fix" ? From a distance it does not look right. Ole

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    Quote Originally Posted by ole.steen View Post
    Tom! Are you sure the o-ring on top of the oil seals are original, and not some attempt at a "quick fix" ? From a distance it does not look right. Ole
    Ole,
    I’m not sure what you are referring to? There is an o-ring inside the smaller of the two lower pulley seals, and I believe that is original. I believe it is a called an “energized seal”. That is the only o-ring I’ve found so far....

    Edit: Maybe you are referring to the black ring around the green seal in the 3rd picture up? If so, that isn’t an o-ring it is just dirty black oil on the seal. It wiped right off...

    -Tom

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    Aha! I see. Ole

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    Default Some bad news and some good news

    As you recall we were speculating that the tip of cylinder I broke with the gear puller wasn't important. My friend who took the cylinder to clean up the burrs and lap it, thinks that in fact it is very important. He says that the wear marks on the cylinder and in that angled track indicate that that is where the mechanism spends most of its time. In other words, that part I broke off is where that roller moves to spin the cylinder and move the pulley in/out.

    The good news here is that he believes the spare motor and lower pulley mechanism he has is from the same vintage of machine so he very likely has a spare valve body. In the next week or so I hope to get that and open it up.

    The moral of this story is, don't be a bonehead and put a gear puller on the inner cylinder of the lower pulley.
    -Tom
    Last edited by tome9999; 05-13-2019 at 05:46 PM.

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    Default Update on progress

    I think we are going to order seals directly from Cazeneuve in France. There are three machines that need hydraulic seals, and one machine that needs lead screw tube seals as well. The quote from Caz. works out to $160 per set plus $45 per set for shipping. Not that bad considering that our local seal supplier wanted $134.00 per set for hydraulic seals and while we think we know the exact sizes there is always some doubt.

    Cazeneuve quoted $135 for a complete set of seals for the tubes so I am getting a set of those as well. My local seal supplier wanted $172 for these seals. Again, I am not 100% sure on the size of the seals so we will be safer going with Caz directly.

    I got hold of the spare Caz motor assembly that my friend had and took it apart today. It's much easier to do and much easier to avoid breaking anything the second time for some reason!

    Speaking of that, a gear puller is not needed, or recommended, to get the outer cylinder off the lower variator. Just tapping around the circumference of the cylinder with a light plastic dead blow (or other non-marring mallet) while gently pulling towards you will get it off with patience and not very much force. You are really just breaking the sticktion force of the hydraulic seal and the inner cylinder wall.

    The valve body (cylinder) in the spare is identical!! Yay! Also the one on the spare is actually in much better condition than the one that came out of our machine (overall, not just because I damaged ours).

    Also attached is a picture of the lower variator housings from our machine (on left) and the spare (on right). Notice the size difference. Also notice the plastic ring in the bottom of the one on the right. This was apparently one of the design changes.

    The other interesting thing is that the inner seal on the spare does not have the o-ring inside the seal. I don't know if the addition of the o-ring (an "energized seal") was a later modification or if this one was just missing it's o-ring for some reason...

    Another interesting difference is shown in the 4th picture below. The ring pointed to with the red arrow is integral with the shaft in the forground. That is the green arrow shows this is not a separate ring but a single piece. On our machine this ring was a separate piece. We pulled it off the shaft and the cylinder in front of it (with the roller bearings under it) just came off. This looks like it will require that the pulley be removed from the motor shaft in order to disassemble anything further. Is this how other people's machine are? What is the procedure from here?

    I reached back in with a 19mm socket and turned the bolt back there, but it seems to loosen and then tighten back up no matter which way I turn it. I first thought it was right-hand threaded, and it loosened fine and then got tight again after a turn or two. I then turned it back the other way (as if it was left-hand threaded) and it got tight, then loose again, then tight again. Does anyone know how to get that bolt out and if it is left or right hand threaded and why it might be behaving this way?

    The last couple pictures are of the pin (minus the little wheel) that is press fit into the shaft and that you need to carefully turn and guide the cylinder in order to have the pin/wheel ride down the slot in the cylinder to get it off without breaking that pin/wheel (speaking from experience here :-)











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    For future reference the photos of our machine in this thread, and other photos I didn't post in this thread, are here:

    Index of /~tom/pub/Caz360HBX


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