Caz 360 HBX Repairs - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Default Update

    We ended up ordering the seals from Cazeneuve directly. The price from our local seal supplier wasn't much cheaper. Cazeneuve filled the order very quickly. It was one week from wiring the money to getting the parts in the US. Attached are pictures of the hydraulic seals, the tube seals, and the wrench we bought.

    The medium sized (green) seal for the lower variator did not come with an o-ring loaded into the seal. The one I took off our machine did (2nd pic), and is called an "energized seal". The cup on the new green seal appears to be slightly shallower (and stiffer) than the larger (blue) seal so perhaps it is designed to hold its shape in lower pressure and not need the o-ring. When I was getting quotes from our local seal supplier they said they had an energized seal that did not require an o-ring as well.

    The green seal has no markings at all on it. The two blue seals do.
    The larger blue seal is marked "AUNA 90-31", "90-80-13.5", and "CFW G1".
    The smaller blue seal is marked "AUNA 54-14", "54-46-8/6.5", and "CFW C1"

    I have no idea what the two plain o-rings in the lower left of the picture are for (they came in the kit). And before you ask, no, they don't fit inside the green (or any other) seal. I didn't find any comparable o-rings in our machine when disassembling. Perhaps for the older machines? Anyone know?

    I'm glad we bought the tube seals from Caz. The tube seals come pre-glued into the rings. That would have been some work to scrape out the old seals from the rings and clean and glue in new ones. I just need to figure out how to pop off the old rings and glue on these new ones now...

    We also bought wrenches from Cazeneuve. They were a bit pricey but these double-square wrenches are very handy and used for many adjustments on the machine so it is good to have one (and a spare).








  2. #42
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    This thread has been an absolute delight to peruse - even as I understand the superb effort that went into doing and so expertly documenting must have "had its moments" as to shorter-term (we hope!) frustrations aplenty.

    My thanks to you and to Ole as well as the several others who have also published on these grand and interestingly eccentric lathes.

    Bill

    (I have the older "cast base" model with the mechanical brake..)

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  4. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    This thread has been an absolute delight to peruse - even as I understand the superb effort that went into doing and so expertly documenting must have "had its moments" as to shorter-term (we hope!) frustrations aplenty.

    My thanks to you and to Ole as well as the several others who have also published on these grand and interestingly eccentric lathes.

    Bill

    (I have the older "cast base" model with the mechanical brake..)

    Thanks Bill. Just trying to give back a bit. There has been some great info regarding this machine posted here so thought I'd add to the knowledge base.
    -Tom

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    Default Leadscrew tube seal replacement

    I haven't yet removed the leadscrew tubes from our machine but I have a spare tube to experiment with. The first step will be to remove the old rings with seals in them.

    So I was attempting to get the seal rings off the spare tubes today. I soaked the end in Acetone as that usually dissolves CA glue. But after soaking for an hour or more the rings wouldn't budge. A friend said he uses heat to release CA glue that he uses to fixture machined parts. So, I took my mapp gas torch outside and sure enough, a bit of heat and the rings just release. After heating around the ring for 15-30 seconds I just grabbed the ring with a welding glove and they come right off.




  6. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by tome9999 View Post
    Thanks Bill. Just trying to give back a bit. There has been some great info regarding this machine posted here so thought I'd add to the knowledge base.
    -Tom
    And you have done!

    The variator drive "supplemental information" to prior posts of others are especially important to me, Tom.

    From what you have posted, it should not be much more difficult to repair the Variator drive than it is to take it out and LEAVE it out. Even "rough" removal to make way for a variable speed motor and the belting "of some sort" it would still need would be a "non-trivial exercise".

    Glad to see you've joined the "restoral" camp, instead!

    Mind - currently shipping models, re-labeled as "Optica" and with a $lew of $iemen$ hybrid teach-in // CNC control$ added, use - AFAIK - a servo motor for spindle drive.

    2013 dated video. Same base & castings / weldments as our manual models "mostly":

    YouTube

    Neat in that it shows the "all manual" HBX in several comparisons.

    See also "repair" of threads about 5.20 minutes in.. Cheap arse as I am, I've merely a collection of thread-restoral files. Steel, not software...




    Thanks again!

  7. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    And you have done!

    The variator drive "supplemental information" to prior posts of others are especially important to me, Tom.

    From what you have posted, it should not be much more difficult to repair the Variator drive than it is to take it out and LEAVE it out. Even "rough" removal to make way for a variable speed motor and the belting "of some sort" it would still need would be a "non-trivial exercise".

    Glad to see you've joined the "restoral" camp, instead!

    Mind - currently shipping models, re-labeled as "Optica" and with a $lew of $iemen$ hybrid teach-in // CNC control$ added, use - AFAIK - a servo motor for spindle drive.

    2013 dated video. Same base & castings / weldments as our manual models "mostly":

    YouTube

    Neat in that it shows the "all manual" HBX in several comparisons.

    See also "repair" of threads about 5.20 minutes in.. Cheap arse as I am, I've merely a collection of thread-restoral files. Steel, not software...




    Thanks again!
    I hadn’t seen that video. I do like the old lathe comparisons. That looks like a nice system though, part manual, part cnc. If I had seventy or eighty grand lying around...

    This machine is in such good shape it would be a shame to convert it. Yes it would be cleaner, but the hydraulic drive mechanism is a thing of beauty despite its leaky nature. And with new seals I am hopeful it will once again run without flinging oil about for many years.

    My usual thread restoral “program” involves thread dies or files too! We have a small Emco lathe converted to cnc. I like the idea of laying the tool in the thread and setting the position and then threading again to clean up threads. Might have to put that on the list of things to do...

    -Tom

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    Quote Originally Posted by tome9999 View Post
    I hadn’t seen that video. I do like the old lathe comparisons. That looks like a nice system though, part manual, part cnc. If I had seventy or eighty grand lying around...
    Might have to stick a "1" in front of 70 or 80 large... or even a "2". I haven't priced them, but what with Euro taxation and VAT ...




    This machine is in such good shape it would be a shame to convert it. Yes it would be cleaner, but the hydraulic drive mechanism is a thing of beauty despite its leaky nature. And with new seals I am hopeful it will once again run without flinging oil about for many years.
    I'm not even that "hopeful". I won't be using it enough to begrudge the odd clean-up and fluid refill so long as the belt dasn't slip overmuch.

    My concern is more with the NOISE that drive and its associated partners can produce. Many you-tubes on HBX out there that illustrate that.

    In addition to the Variator, the older HBX have the all-manual foot-treadle operated external band brake on a hub that resembles a siren or turbojet intake more than a cooling-fan AND a sore noisy primary hydraulic pump on the tailshaft of the drive motor!

    A run-silent, cut deep 10EE they were never! Hope yours is much quieter, oily or not!

  9. #48
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    Default Gearbox movement

    Today I was trying to diagnose why the control for Metric/English sometimes doesn't quite mesh smoothly. I opened the back cover on the gear box and manipulated the various gears. It is fascinating mechanism they created.

    I am still not 100% sure why it doesn't always mesh smoothly. The hang up is happening between gears on the lower left (near the casting). The gear on the lower left slides over another gear attached to the back of the largest gear on the large gear train. Those two gears do not fully mesh all the time. I oiled this area well and it helped a bit. If it doesn't slide in easily, I can spin the chuck and it usually falls into place. It may just be a bit worn and a little looser than it was originally. It's not worth disassembling/rebuilding the whole gear box though, I think we can live with it...



    However, there appears to be another problem where this same mechanism seizes up from time to time and wont move at all, but then will suddenly free itself, sometimes only after spinning the chuck. I am pretty sure this seizing is the whole shaft where it enters the casting (and attaches to the leadscrew I assume). It occurred to me this evening that this problem only appeared after the lathe had been unused for months and the leadscrew tube is empty of oil. I am wondering if this problem will go away once I re-fill the lead screw reservoir? In the video right at the start I am trying to manipulate the Metric/English knob in/out and you can see the mechanism trying to move but going no where making that clicking noise. Then while spinning the gears and moving the mechanism it suddenly releases...


  10. #49
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    Default O-Rings included with seals

    I asked Cazeneuve what the black o-rings that came in the set of seals were for. They sent the two pages (below)highlighting in pink where the 5 items included in the kit are located. So, it was clear from these that the 2 o-rings are in the back half of the upper variator pulley shaft. I hadn't planned to remove that but since I have new o-rings...





    I saw a c-clip in the shaft of the pulley and removed it. I then gently tapped with a plastic hammer and pulled and the back half of the pulley slid easily off the shaft. It turns out (I realized later) that it is not necessary to remove the c-clip in order to remove the pulley. The c-clip is holding a piece inside the pulley shaft that the splines are cut into, it has nothing to do with keeping the pulley on the shaft.

    There was a slight pop as the back side of the pulley shaft exited the deep cover that is behind the pulley (see pics below) and I wasn't sure at first what that sound was. Then I saw a ring/washer thing back in there that was loose (pointing to it with screwdriver in second pic below). It was clear then that that ring was attached to the end of the pulley shaft and because of it's shape the cover prevents it from coming out. This means that to re-assemble I have to remove the cover to get the ring out to re-attach to the pulley...





  11. #50
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    I pulled the 4 M10 hex bolts out of the cover. There is silicone caulk around the edge of the cover where it meets the casting (can see it in cover picture above), and silicone can also be seen inside the cover as well. The seal against the casting was very tight and there was no where to get a tool in to try to pry the cover off. What ended up working was to get a razor blade and slide in the practically invisible gap between the cover and casting and tap on the top of the razor blade with a metal rod. At first it didn't seem to be doing anything but suddenly the razor slid in a bit and the cover let loose. There was a very very thin layer of silicone on the face of the cover and the silicone that could be seen inside and out around the periphery was what squeezed out when the screws were tightened down. By the way, the blue silicone in the second pic below is not attached to the ring, it just fell onto the ring when I removed the cover...





  12. #51
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    The ring appears to be an oil slinger, essentially a shield that causes oil to drip down into the cover, and from there to a return hole in the casting. If that ring wasn't there oil would probably be flung around the backside of the pulley shaft and eventually make it's way out of the cover (which is not sealed against backside of pulley shaft) and leak.

    The ring on this machine is clearly damaged. After spending time looking at how the mechanism operates and how far the pulley can move we decide the most likely explanation for the damage is that someone replaced the seals on the machine and did not re-install this ring. It then spun around between the pulley shaft and casting which heated it up (can see heat damage in photos) and also pushed the metal edge around. This probably made quite a racket and the person then went back in and re-attached the (damaged) ring to the shaft.

    I can either just push the ring back onto the shaft like I found it, or I can either repair it or replace it (which is probably what I will do). The first picture shows how it goes on the shaft, though one must first put the cover over the shaft before assembling!

    In fact reassembly is going to be a bit of a dance. Put new silicone sealant on cover face, put cover over shaft of pulley, attach slinger ring to pulley shaft, slide all this over the inner shaft and onto splines. Then slide cover up against casting and bolt 4 bolts down (getting wrench behind the big pulley). Finish sliding pulley back fully into cover...






    The picture below shows the backside of the pulley shaft where the ring seats. You can also see the (larger) o-ring just inside the edge.



    The picture below shows the front side of the pulley shaft with the c-clip (that does not need to be removed) and the (smaller) o-ring just inside the edge.


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  14. #52
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    Default Reinstall of upper pulley

    I cleaned up the oil slinger ring with a file and was able to reinstall it, remembering to put the cover over the shaft first.




    I ran a very thin bead of RTV gasket maker around the face of the cover and slid the pulley and cover back on the upper shaft. I then mated the cover with the machine casting and screwed down the 4 hex screws by hand until they where snug. I let the gasket material set up and an hour later tightened the screws down with a wrench. I then put on the new seal.



    I then put on the outer pulley and pushed it over the seal. I put back the c-clip, and once again realized this internal c-clip did not need to be removed to begin with. I then put back the thick washer and hex nut with a 36mm wrench.



    After tightening that I realized I was an idiot and forgot to put the belt on the top pulley first I had to remove the nut and use the slide hammer to get the pulley off, put the belt on and re-assemble. Arg.

    I used the RTV gasket to seal up the gearbox cover as well and re-installed that.

    It's good to have made some progress with re-assembling the machine rather than taking more apart! I do still need to remove the lead screw tubes but it will be nice to get the drive back together. Hopefully that will happen over this coming week.

    This is the gasket maker I used:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    -Tom

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    Default Drive Reassembly part1

    Upper variator is back together and I am nearly done with the lower. Just need to finish up and reconnect the hydraulics and drain lines. Attached are a few pics of the upper. I will post some YouTube videos of the lower variator reassembly below.




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    Default Drive reassembly part1

    This video shows the reassembly of the outer lower variator pulley.


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    Default Drive reassembly part2

    This video shows me putting the outer pulley on over the new seal. NOTE:One must first remember to drop the wheel that rides in the track of the valve body into the slot before putting on the pulley! I put the wheel in the slot up against the outer most portion of the slot.

    I then had to tap the pulley on using a plastic dead blow and while looking down the shaft to make sure the splines are lined up. I am not really hitting the end of the shaft that hard, the video camera is attached to the door of the machine so it shakes when I tap, but may make it appear as if I am beating on the pulley - I'm not, just a bit of persuading to get it over the new seal.


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    Default Drive reassembly part2

    This video shows me lining up the pin hole in the outer pulley shaft with the wheel that is in the slot of the valve body. I dropped the wheel into the slot before putting the outer pulley on. I am then moving the pulley in/out while looking down the pin hole (with flashlight) to align the hole with the wheel that is laying down in there...


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    Default Drive reassembly part2

    Here i am using the plastic dead blow and a copper drift to drive in the pin that is press fit into the outer pulley shaft and which engages the wheel that is in the slot in the valve body.


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    Default Drive reassembly part2

    Once the pin is installed, you can move the outer pulley back to expose the slot in the shaft and valve body. There is just enough space there to see inside to verify that the pin did in fact engage the wheel correctly and that the mechanism is moving as it should. When you push the pulley in/out the valve body rotates slightly by the wheel sliding up and down the track.


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    Default Drive reassembly part3

    Putting on outer seal, cap over the end and threaded ring that holds it all together. I then install the outer cover and the actuation rod. I should be able to finish up the rest of the installation in an hour or so.


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    Default

    The hydraulic drive is back together with new drain lines. After finishing this today I drained all the hydraulic oil and removed the filter. I will clean up the sump area and when the new filter comes in I'll install it and refill the oil. I bought 10 gallones of Mobil DTE Light. I ended up pumping out about 8.5 gallons of oil from the machine. The tag on the side of the machine says 6.6 gallons. There is a dipstick in the oil tank and it was near the MIN line when I started pumping so not sure why the tag is so far off what actually goes in there...



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