Early vs late Schaublin 13

Hi,

I’m looking into buying a Schaublin 13 milling machine that came up in my area recently. The price is fairly low (a half or third of what I would need to pay for a decently looking Deckel here, Germans do like their machines it seems!). The only caveat is that it’s an early lighter version and most of the praise that Schaublins get is in context of later versions. Anyone here worked on both versions and can say if the early version is still a decent machine? I haven’t seen it in person yet, so I’m not sure about the wear, but I wanted to get as much info as I can get before viewing it.

On the upside it comes with all the types of heads (slotting, milling and a high speed drilling head), with two overarm supports, a few horizontal shafts and cutters and some holders and collets.

I’m particularly worried about a lower weight (ie. less rigidity) and a MT4 taper instead of ISO30 which I heard is preferable.

I should probably add that I plan to do some work in cast iron, mild steel and tool steel mainly, rather smaller stuff (like tooling). I haven’t own a mill yet, only a lathe and a shaper.

drogus said:

Hi,

I’m looking into buying a Schaublin 13 milling machine that came up in my area recently. The price is fairly low (a half or third of what I would need to pay for a decently looking Deckel here, Germans do like their machines it seems!). The only caveat is that it’s an early lighter version and most of the praise that Schaublins get is in context of later versions. Anyone here worked on both versions and can say if the early version is still a decent machine? I haven’t seen it in person yet, so I’m not sure about the wear, but I wanted to get as much info as I can get before viewing it.

On the upside it comes with all the types of heads (slotting, milling and a high speed drilling head), with two overarm supports, a few horizontal shafts and cutters and some holders and collets.

I’m particularly worried about a lower weight (ie. less rigidity) and a MT4 taper instead of ISO30 which I heard is preferable.

I should probably add that I plan to do some work in cast iron, mild steel and tool steel mainly, rather smaller stuff (like tooling). I haven’t own a mill yet, only a lathe and a shaper.

Click to expand...

I'd probably be posting fotos of it, already BOUGHT if the package is priced that attractively!

The "taper wars" MT vs B&S with jarno posited as compromise, were already over prior to 1900, with B&S proven the more suitable for milling, MT for drilling. Even so, when mated with a decent retaining system, MT soldiered-on in Horizontal Boring mills for another hundred years and more.

I can find NADA as to how Schaublin retained their 4 MT, but they would have been well aware of its downsides, and would have had "something" that worked, and worked well. They had vast experience. They just didn't DO "half-vast".

Easy to find all manner of tooling and adapters for 4 MT, yet today in ER, TG, SK,..... wotever.

Unless you trust you can find a comparable deal on a heavier late model 30-taper one that is also fully optioned-up and partially tooled?

You grabbed this yesterday already, right?

Thanks for the reply! For the record, I checked Deckel prices again and it’s more like a half, I may have exaggerared with a third. But still seems like a good price of course! I’m going to view it tomorrow, because at this point it seems that the wear may be the only deal breaker.

drogus said:

Thanks for the reply! For the record, I checked Deckel prices again and it’s more like a half, I may have exaggerared with a third. But still seems like a good price of course! I’m going to view it tomorrow, because at this point it seems that the wear may be the only deal breaker.

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Depends. It is only a micro-mill. Everything about it tiny.

So long as uber-costly bearings or gears are not trashed, refurb of sliding fits and alignments are not out of the question as DIY'able, partly 'coz they can be done in increments. "Compensating" in your work progressively less for wear as each axis is brought good.

If you mean the one in Spa%dau
That one has a Iso 30 taper
The table looks to be from a Deckel FP1
So perhaps low in max height between spindle and table
But you can mount any table on it Even a angle plate will do
If the price is valid depends on condition
For that price it should be good IMHO

Peter

What Peter said, presuming we are now all looking at the same fotos.

Mind he/I/most... wudda seen the ISO taper on first glance, even were it NOT in the text.

You, OTOH, mentioned not HAVING ANY mill, but as you are seeking yer first one? It might be wise to study-up on what their tooling shanks are, and look like...

..lest you get seriously cursed with a wimp-ass R8 or even MT TWO! Or a decent, but gone "unobtanium" QC system that's an RBK to shop-fab.

thermite said:

Depends. It is only a micro-mill. Everything about it tiny.

So long as uber-costly bearings or gears are not trashed, refurb of sliding fits and alignments are not out of the question as DIY'able, partly 'coz they can be done in increments. "Compensating" in your work progressively less for wear as each axis is brought good.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the insight! I am very new to this, but I’m really interested in machine rebuilding, so this may well be one of my projects (just after the lathe, which would definitely need some love!). I started reading Machine Tool Reconditioning recently and I’m preparing to do some scraping on test pieces. But yeah, I was more worried about spindles in both heads or spur gears.

Peter from Holland said:

If you mean the one in Spa%dau
That one has a Iso 30 taper
The table looks to be from a Deckel FP1
So perhaps low in max height between spindle and table
But you can mount any table on it Even a angle plate will do
If the price is valid depends on condition
For that price it should be good IMHO

Peter

Click to expand...

Thanks for your opinion on this, I saw many of your posts in Schaublin related topics so it means a lot to have someone experienced help.

thermite said:

What Peter said, presuming we are now all looking at the same fotos.

Mind he/I/most... wudda seen the ISO taper on first glance, even were it NOT in the text.

You, OTOH, mentioned not HAVING ANY mill, but as you are seeking yer first one? It might be wise to study-up on what their tooling shanks are, and look like...

..lest you get seriously cursed with a wimp-ass R8 or even MT TWO! Or a decent, but gone "unobtanium" QC system that's an RBK to shop-fab.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the tip! You’re totally right, I started researching Schaublins not long before writing my post and I have little experience in general. And although I’m trying to learn as much as I can, I’m not deluding myself - I know that I'll probably miss something and that I may do a bad deal. That said, I’m looking for a well known machines like Schaublin, because then I’m risking less I think - equipment is still available and they’re well documented and manuals are easy to find. Also, I'm trying to buy a cheaper machine. I don't mind to learn on a machine that is not ideal. I can search for something better and more expensive once I grasp more about machining and I know my needs better.

I ended up buying the machine, thanks again for help! I didn't want to post the link before, because it was an auction (yeah, selfish, I know, but I have a rather limited budget at the moment), but I think I got a pretty good deal. I'll post some pictures and maybe I'll shoot a video after I pick it up.

The machine didn't seem worn out when I was checking it. It isn't in perfect condition either, but I think it's OK to make some chips without major reconditioning, so while I would love to do it at some point, I think it may wait a while.

Btw. I'm considering selling the slotting head (as I already own a shaper, which I don't plan to sell in any forseeable future), so if anyone is interested, please let me know.

drogus said:

Btw. I'm considering selling the slotting head (as I already own a shaper, which I don't plan to sell in any forseeable future), so if anyone is interested, please let me know.

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You might want to re-think that. Or at least delay a decision until use experiences weigh-in.

I'm planning to finish the refurb of a 12" Sheldon shaper "someday", then shed it because....

I have since acquired a 7" slotter that wants near-zero floorspace and no "extra" power beyond what the mill it mounts to already has.

Long and short of it is that a decent mill does all but a few tasks a shaper is good for, and those few are near-as-dammit slotter work, anyway. Internal splines, keyways, and such.

A PLANER, OTOH? Dif'rent story. Hard to beat for "flat". Or for wasting floor space, 'tween taskings. Those damned trade-offs again.

thermite said:

You might want to re-think that. Or at least delay a decision until use experiences weigh-in.

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Yup, I probably will do that, I'm well aware that if I sell it, it's gone and my chances on buying another one are pretty slim.

thermite said:

I'm planning to finish the refurb of a 12" Sheldon shaper "someday", then shed it because....

I have since acquired a 7" slotter that wants near-zero floorspace and no "extra" power beyond what the mill it mounts to already has.

Long and short of it is that a decent mill does all but a few tasks a shaper is good for, and those few are near-as-dammit slotter work, anyway. Internal splines, keyways, and such.

Click to expand...

For me it's also about the size of work. The maximum working area on my shaper is roughly 17"x17", the longest travel for Schaublin is about 13"x10". Also, I think that I can get a much nicer surface finish on the shaper with a shear tool - as a hobbyist I won't be probably buying a surface grinder in the near future, so this might be a big difference between having a shaper (I'll need to do some comparisons between Schaublin and Klopp, though). And to be honest, I really enjoy working with the shaper I'll revisit that after working with the mill, but I love that little Klopp.

thermite said:

A PLANER, OTOH? Dif'rent story. Hard to beat for "flat". Or for wasting floor space, 'tween taskings. Those damned trade-offs again.

Click to expand...

I know what you mean, if I found any planer that doesn't weigh a few tonns I would already have it There's something that I really like in the simplicity of single point cutting tools. I was even thinking about building a small planer (like one of those cute model shapers that people build), but that will need to wait a few years, because I don't have the skill now.