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  1. #41
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    On mine the RPM meter is not working
    It seems the Frequency/current converter is not working properly
    I cannot find a replacement so I ordered a cheapo RPM meter with leds
    But that type needs a magnet on the spindle
    Perhaps I should dig in to the Hrz/mA convertor more

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    Dear Peter,

    You need to check the sensor, I think it is a hall sensor and see if it works.

    Then see if you get any current into the RPM meter. The meter is just a 0-5mA current meter.
    If your sensor is OK than maybe the wires have disconnected somewhere.

    everything is so robust I do not think it is the frequency converter.

    The needle is held like in a watch. There are two brass adjusting screws that have a hole. One of the screws
    in my case was opened (maybe vibrations) and the needle shaft that is held in between the two brush screws
    was out of place. Strangely the inner magnet had lots of iron/steel particles so it could not move.
    I had to clean it all and while doing that I damaged the cooper spring.. I had to put it in place and
    re solder it..

    In all this was a fun work.. I am anxious to continue the work on it...

    If you can find the PCB you may see the frequency convert IC, should be something simple.

    I found a simple design of a frequency to current converter using LM331:
    frequency to voltage : Converter Circuits :: Next.gr

    This IC can work at up to 40v so it may be an option if all the rest is OK, maybe with some modifications.

    There are other options as well.

    BR,
    Noam.

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    the input voltage on the convertor should be 24DC But with 24 volts AC from the transformer converted to DC gives 34 volts
    Perhaps that was to much over time
    Here the nameplate of the convertor
    The sensor is 2 wires The diagram says a inductive one
    I tested it with another 2 wire sensor with no result
    Perhaps I shoud order a new one What do I need then ???


    Peter
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails convertor.jpg  

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    Dear Peter,

    If you can get a hold on an oscilloscope you can see if the sensor pics the changes.
    As far as I see it has a coil in it. It is supplied with a current and the movement of
    the toot wheel causes a change in the magnetic field. The outcome should be some frequency
    coming out of the sensor. If you connect an oscilloscope in parallel to the sensor I think
    you should see some frequency.

    I do not remember how many teeth are in reference gear but from the manual if I am correct
    it has 18 teeth. It rotates directly with the spindle. So if the spindle rotates at 1000 RPM
    you should get a frequency of ((1000 * 18) / 60) = 300 Hz

    The converter is rated at 900Hz and the sticker says 900Hz == 3000 RPM

    Here is a link to IME site (the manufacturer), maybe they can assist:
    Company | IME

    I do not think that it was overloaded. It is either a faulty wire or maybe the converter.

    First you should check that the sensor does something, the converter does something etc..
    You need to check the chain up to the meter...

    If you do not have an oscilloscope or someone to help, there are simply modern DVM's that have
    the ability to measure frequency.

    I checked a bit more and I see that 24v is standard industrial. You need to consult an industrial
    electrician and also check out for "industrial frequency to current converter"

    The modern ones have a digital out display.

    I hope this helps a bit

    BR,
    Noam.

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    Dear Peter,

    Any luck with the IME unit ?

    I have a question for you. I have started today the late and I triad to hear were the main noise comes from.
    It seems that even when the spindle is not engaged the gear and motor makes lots of noise, too much I think.
    also when I rotate the spindle by hand I noticed also that there is some noise from it, not smooth.

    Looks like the bearings are not is a so good shape. I do not think that I will have the owner consent (my boos)
    to work on that, that may be an over kill for its current use...

    Maybe after flashing the oil, cleaning etc it may sound a bit better.

    Does your 12S also makes lots of noise, especially at above 1000 RPM, say 1500 RPM ?

    Thanks,
    Noam.

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    I have not worked on the IME unit
    Other things to do

    Sometimes it helps to replace the bearings right behind the V-belt poelies
    I have a set of pullers that can pull a bearing with the shaft still in place
    The belts pull hard on those bearings
    Mine is noisy too like so many older machines

    Peter

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    Dear Peter,

    Today I further checked the noise issue. First I see that near the gear box there is a smaller
    motor maybe 500W any idea for what that is ?

    As far as I see the gear box is making a most of the noise. Maybe it does not have any oil or at
    some time it was missing... Dismantling that and replacing bearings inside is a big effort.

    Maybe if I will clean it and we will start working on it my boos will approve fixing the gear box.

    BR,
    Noam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noamw View Post
    First I see that near the gear box there is a smaller
    motor maybe 500W any idea for what that is ?
    Maybe the motor which controls the pulley position? This is a common feature of a Reeves Drive (expanding/contracting pulleys) where remote speed control is required.

    BTW, it looks like there are at least two electromagnetic clutches inside the transmission, presumably for forward and reverse, maybe a brake too? I wonder if the clutches are the same as a Sag 12, they look larger, but hard to be sure from this brochure photo:


    graz3-edit.jpg

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    Dear Peter,

    Yes it has two clutches and a break.

    Do you have the brochure in electronic form, can you share it?

    In the manual that I have the smaller motor is not part of the drawings and part lists.
    In the electrical drawings it is stated that there 3 electric motor. As far as I understand
    there is the main 3HP motor, there is the pump motor and a fun to cool the electrical cabinet.
    The one that is right to the gear box is a puzzle to me.

    BR,
    Noam.

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    Noam,

    I have a Sag 12S brochure, but a copy of it is on this excellent website, link below:

    Graziano SAG 12 & 12S

    There is also a Sag 12S manual (thanks to Peter from Holland) and other Graziano stuff.

    Regarding the 500 watt motor. How do you change speeds on your lathe? Is there a increase/decrease switch? If so, the switch works a little motor which moves the Reeves drive pulley....(that;s how it looks to me anyway).

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    Dear Peter,

    I have a standard 12S control box like in the brochure with the the increase/decrease switches.

    I understand how the conical pulleys work but I do not understand why there is a need for an added
    motor ?.. I would understand if there was some sollonied or some lever that was changing the conical
    pulleys plate distance?

    Thanks I have the PDF already, I thought that there is more related info...

    Thanks anyway,
    Noam.

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    The motor is there to change speed on the reeves drive
    Like the other Peter tells you

    For replacing bearings situated on the outside I use a special set of pullers
    SKF deep groove ball bearing puller kit TMMD 100

    Peter

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    Mine is noisy too. Rather, I'd say its loud. I think it's probably normal, it sounds the same whether the spindle is running or not. There's just a fair bit of stuff spinning in there, some of it the opposite direction, and all the gears are straight cut AFAIK.

    I'm fairly sure the extra motor is to vary the speed. Would have been nice if they'd wired it so you could at least reduce the speed without the spindle turning. I put it in back gear if I feel I need to. Not enough nerve to put it in 'neutral' between ranges and run it, in case it decided to drop into one of them.

    It's a pretty solid lathe, even with it's little quirks. The threading brake is awesome, and Inch/Metric at the flip of a lever. Wish it had better spindle bearings though. Mine has a bit of cyclic runout. The manual spec's Timken part numbers, which come up on amazon as wheel bearings for about $65 the set.

    I think the earlier SAG-12 used Gamets. It'd be interesting to see if the size is the same, as they have a reputation for being the best tapered rollers made. Curious what a set would cost.

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    Some guy (this is a third hand story btw)bought a used Sag 14. Started it up with no oil in the headstock and destroyed those Gamet bearings. And the replacement cost was more than the lathe was worth apparently.

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    Couldn't be anywhere near as bad as a Monarch EE. A rebuilder told us they were about 7k, and that was 35-40 years ago. But even at 70+ years old they're better than mine.

    Another crazy idea was to replace them with angular contact ball bearings. But doing that right would mean a duplex set up front, and it would probably turn into a major engineering exercise to make room for that. It's good enough as is for what I need.

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    Hi Everyone,

    I am planing to remove the hand wheel in the apron to repair the threads for the handle and dial stopper.

    In the drawings I have there should be a hidden taper 6x40 (item 12) with an internal 4mm thread to pull it out.

    This can be seen if you pull the wheel, slide the dial away and walla there is an ugly about 8mm hole there. When
    I used a flashlight I can see the inner and something that looks like a pin but it is surfaced with the inner part.

    I do not see any thread..

    Any one out there has any idea how to dismantle that ?

    I can load some images on Thursday, forgot to take some today..

    BR,
    Noam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 706jim View Post
    Some guy (this is a third hand story btw)bought a used Sag 14. Started it up with no oil in the headstock and destroyed those Gamet bearings. And the replacement cost was more than the lathe was worth apparently.
    It's also possible he had the motor turning the wrong way. When it's turning the wrong way the pump isn't supplying oil to the bearings and gears

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    Yes I'm aware of that. But I think the damage was due to the lack of oil.

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    Dear Friends,

    Anyone knows how to grease the motor bearings in a Graziano SAG 12S. The manual says:
    "Grease the motor and electro-pump bearings periodically"

    As the main motor is under the gear box I do not see how there is access to it ?

    Any ideas ?

    Beside that in the manual there are about 10 places with oil nipples that seems to be greased? Does that means
    actually to use a grease gun or an oil pressure gun and press oil into it ??

    Thanks,
    Noam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noamw View Post
    Dear Friends,

    Anyone knows how to grease the motor bearings in a Graziano SAG 12S. The manual says:
    "Grease the motor and electro-pump bearings periodically"

    As the main motor is under the gear box I do not see how there is access to it ?

    Any ideas ?

    Beside that in the manual there are about 10 places with oil nipples that seems to be greased? Does that means
    actually to use a grease gun or an oil pressure gun and press oil into it ??

    Thanks,
    Noam.
    Regarding "Grease the motor and electro-pump bearings periodically" - I doubt there are any grease nipples on the motors. So that would require dismantling the motors.

    It sounds like old maintenance books and car manuals which recommended periodic dismantling, removal, cleaning and greasing of wheel bearings, motor bearings etc.

    In my opinion, it is not necessary and not done in real life anyway.

    When necessary, old bearings are now simply replaced with new sealed bearings, greased for the lifetime of the bearing.

    Having said that, these lathes are now 30-50 years old at least and replacing all the motor bearings doesn't sound like a bad idea. But if they are not noisy, who does? For example, during a complete strip-down, I replaced all the bearings in my 1970's Bridgeport mill....except the motor bearings.

    I think if I had the transmission out of my lathe, I would probably replace the motor bearings. I would not re-grease the old bearings.


    The "10 places with oil nipples" you mention are all oiled, not greased. There is no grease used on the Sag 12 anyway. The manual doesn't specifically say to use oil, but the lube diagram shows the same oil gun and oil can being used on obvious oil points such as the slideways.

    The less obvious oil points are the idler gear shaft nipple, the nipple below the cross feed handle and the swinging cover on the "end bar support" (block which supports lead screw etc. at the tailstock end). A bit of tacky oil (or grease?) on the change gears occasionally too.

    The Sag 12 lube diagram doesn't show that there are four oil points on the saddle for the main slideways.

    On a Sag 12S there may be other points on the Reeves Drive.

    BTW, the Sag 12 was supplied with a small 'pom-pom' oil gun, a bit like the one in the drawing.


    One more thing regarding the noise from your lathe - the change gears on any lathe can be noisy if they are meshed too deep. They must have clearance/backlash. Check by running the lathe with the gears disconnected. It is always a good method when checking for a mystery noise to isolate/disconnect as many parts as possible.

    sag-12-09a.jpg sag-12-09b.jpg

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