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Graziano Sag 14 how big of a project is this?

B.Kliebert

Aluminum
Joined
Jan 18, 2010
Today I looked at a Sag 14 that is up for sale at a surplus auction taking place tomorrow. Pulled top cover off, no teeth missing no visible signs of abuse comes with Rohm 4 jaw even has the steady.

As can be seen in the pictures the motor and mounting plate are missing and I'm going to assume the motor starter.

I understand parts are like hens teeth for these things but mechanically best that I can tell without it running is it's in decent shape.

How big of a project is this going to turn into mounting the motor?
Is it a simple flange mounted motor on a plate?

Any and all opinions appreciated.

Buck
 

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310 Guy thanks for confirming that for me.
Would you happen to have a picture of the motor spec plate or know offhand the rpm and frame?
Motor pulley dimensions?

Thanks
Buck
 
Sorry Buck, can't help you there. I pulled that photo off the lathes.co.uk site... Archive: lathes.co.uk

Looks like you should be looking for a 5hp motor. As for pulley size, you may have to try the old trial-and-error method. Judging from the photo, I'd say start with a motor pulley about the same size as the driven pulley.
 
Buck,

It's too late here for me to check any dimensions for you, but here is a photo showing another possible solution - I can't recall who posted this photo, but it shows a home made modification to allow a foot mounted motor.

Have a good look around for that big motor plate and motor pulley! But not too hard to replicate.

Good luck with the auction.

p.s. I found a note of my Sag 14 motor plate. Type: EC 132 MB4-8. It is a two-speed motor, so the model number won't be exactly correct for your lathe. Presumably "4-8" means 4 pole and 8 pole. It is 5.5 & 4 hp, 1450/722 rpm @ 50 Hz. I guess your 60 Hz motors will be a slightly different. The Sag 14 you are looking at would have had a single speed motor (I can tell from the spindle speed selector).

Graziano sag 14 foot mount motor.jpg
 
image.jpgThanks to both of you.
Pete heres a better picture of the hedstock end in reguards to single or double speed.

sorry about rotated pic
 
Hi Buck, I have a SAG 14 also. The motor plate is just that.... The weight of the motor (5 hp) and the plate tension the belts pretty much. I found new belts at McMaster which were A55 I believe and they were matched for size. I can measure the pulleys diameter later if you don't already have them.
I saw in the pictures that you supplied that it looks like the oil supply lines in the headstock are not what I believe are (in my 14) original. I have copper lines and the one
that leaves the oil filter and bends to feed the Gamet bearing should have a hole punched in it. This pours oil onto the gears/ spindle just aft of the Gamet front spindle bearing.
Another issue I discovered after I bought this lathe was that one of the feed gears has a pin that had sheared. This only shows up on the most popular thread selection for me.... 16/ 32 etc. You can check this by going through all of the feed selections and try to turn either the threading lead screw or the carriage power feed screw manually. If you can then it is probably a sheared pin that saved the gears during a compound/ chuck crash while on automatic feed.
BTW, I need to go into my feed selection box to fix this.... Anyone knows how difficult this is?

Regards,
Chuck
 
Don't have any specs but I do know that our SAG 14 had a 7-1/2 HP 3PH 1710 RPM motor. It was a flange mount but I'm pretty sure it was a proprietary thing--not a standard "C" face motor. Shouldn't be hard to adapt something though--it's pretty straight forward...
 
Buck,

Here is a photo of my Sag 14 motor mount. The motor is located by the four bolts only, the big hole in the motor plate is not machined, just a cast finish, so the locating diameter of the motor flange is quite a bit smaller than the cast hole.

I measured the motor pulley - the outside diameter is 108.90mm (4.287"). The belts are A55.

I can get more measurements if you get the lathe.

The two speed motor machines have the extra speeds printed on the spindle speed selector dial (see photo). They also have an extra push button on the control panel (see photo)

Sag 14 motor 01.jpg Sag 14 motor 02.jpg sag 14 2 speed motor.jpg sag 14 selector 05.jpg
 
Thank you all for the information so far!
I was the sucessful bidder yesterday and belive it or not found the complete motor assembly. It was being used as a counterweight on the base of a rockwell geared head drill press.
What I have discovered so far(last night) is there is an oil leak in the headstock somewhere as the motor was dripping with gear oil.
Found a link here on PM to rhe manual, going to start later today tring to determine the source of the leak.

Buck
 
Congratulations on finding the motor and mounting flange. Mine had some oil on it as well and found ( through the manual) that the headstock and the feed box both have their drain plugs in and above the motor cavity. The actual sump for the headstock is an aluminum casting much like what one would see on automotive engine so there is probably a gasket up there.... Maybe the sump was over filled at some time. I also had a leak at the oil filter sight glass which was an easy fix.
The carriage apron also had an oil leak and was found to be a gasket that has been mentioned in other Graz. threads as being not too hard to find/ replace. I found the original maker in England still has these available .... GACO Oil Seals Including DPSM,DE Seals,DI Seals,Cup Seals,Hat Seals,U-Rings,Distributor Seals,MI Oil Seals,MIS Oil Seals,SMIM Oil Seals,Wiper Seals,Nulips,Quad Rings.
 
Buck,

Good to hear you have the Sag 14 and the motor plate.

Here is list of accessories which should be with the lathe, it sounds like a good search might be worthwhile.

I have attached photos of all these parts:

-Three jaw chuck with extra jaws and chuck key.
-Four jaw with chuck key.
-Face plate.
-Carrier plate.
-Spindle morse taper sleeve.
-Fixed steady.
-Follow rest.
-Tool post with all the tool holders and the wrenches (three types usually).
-Extra gears (see photo of accessory list for sizes).

Also:

-Coolant tray (and pump, hose, etc.)
-Under the chuck there should be some short, sheetmetal, way covers. occasionally they get removed for extra swing, they are worth having and protect the ways (see photo).

Not to mention:

any tooling and tips to suit, drill chuck and key, tailstock centres.

Sag 14 accessories 01.jpg Sag 14 accessories 02.jpg Sag 14 accessories 03.jpg IMG_0151.JPGSag 14 way covers, short.jpg
 
For comparison, here is the inside of a Sag 14 headstock which was pretty much used every day of its life until it retired to my shed this year. And probably has never had an oil change. How did it get so dirty? Clutch wear perhaps. :(

Buck, you mentioned "gear oil" on the motor. The headstock and feed box and apron should all have a light hydraulic oil, not gear oil. The manual says "Teresso 47", I was told by a Shell technician the modern equivalent was "Tellus 46" which I believe is a common ISO 46 hydraulic oil used in all sorts of machinery, e.g. hydraulics. But do your own equivalent checks.

Note:

-The tray bolted to the underside of the headstock cover, this (I suppose) is filled by oil flung by the gears, and distributes it to important places. I tried reversing the cover to see if it could be installed incorrectly but the screws didn't quite line up.

-Like Chuck, this lathe has copper oil pipes and I have shown the oil jet hole he mentioned.

-FYI, after removing the headstock cover, I noticed the lathe serial number is stamped on the machined gasket surface. The serial number is stamped on the tailstock end (side) of the bed ways, I guess the headstock is also stamped to keep them together.

-I will give this tired old lathe an oil change. I must admit I was surprised at how clean Buck's new lathe is inside the headstock. And the plastic tubes. Might have been worked on I suppose.

-It's worth turning the speed selector while the cover is off - just to admire the mechanism that shifts the gears, and pay homage to the Genius who invented it. :bowdown:


Sag 14 headstock inside 01.jpg Sag 14 headstock inside 02.jpg
 
What I know so far is that the machine came out of a state run technical school and due to the condition inside of the headstock has not seen very much use.
I started cleaning the machine up last night I am planned on using a mixture of Kerosene and automatic transmission fluid to flush the headstock out, Is this a good idea or should I use something else?

So far the only thing damaged that I have seen was the handwheel for the carrage which was probably done in transport before the auction. Anyone have a spare? Should be easy to fabricate one.


Chuck, good call on the leaky sump that is what it appears to have been coming from as all of the bolts surrounding the sump had oil on them.

Peter, thank you for all the information! The plastic line nearest the chuck on mine has the hole to spray the rear of the bearing, I will take some pictures tonight and post.
I drained the headstock and had roughly 1 gallon of oil that drained out it's thinner than gear oil but has that distinct smell.
It does have the covers still intact over the ways.

As far as accessories not much was included just a Rohm 4 jaw and the steady rest.


Buck
 
Last edited:
Here are a few more pictures as promised.

PeterS the dark spot on the tubing is the oil jet hole.
IMG_1825.jpg

This picture is before flushing out, there is a little accumulation of particles around the clutch area, rest of the headstock was remarkably clean.
IMG_1830.jpg

What is the signifigance of this number? Still trying to determine year.
IMG_1831.jpg

and the motor ID tag
IMG_1832.jpg

Buck
 
Buck,

Looking good so far :).

The UCIMU label can be found on many Italian machine tools, I think it is an association of the Italian machine tool industry.

Research and Innovation - UCIMU-SISTEMI PER PRODURRE

I am pretty certain the number on the UCIMU tag is not the Graziano serial number. The Graziano serial number should be stamped on the ways, down at the tailstock end. For example, on my lathe it is SAG14N5722 , I believe the serial number is therefore 5722.

Not sure about dates, my lathe could be 1960's.

BTW, I think there is an oil filter behind the top sight glass (where the plastic tubes come from). Also, there is a dip stick behind the headstock for the oil level - not everyone spots this.

SAG 14 lube pg 17-red.jpg
 
Buck,

It's too late here for me to check any dimensions for you, but here is a photo showing another possible solution - I can't recall who posted this photo, but it shows a home made modification to allow a foot mounted motor.

Have a good look around for that big motor plate and motor pulley! But not too hard to replicate.

Good luck with the auction.

p.s. I found a note of my Sag 14 motor plate. Type: EC 132 MB4-8. It is a two-speed motor, so the model number won't be exactly correct for your lathe. Presumably "4-8" means 4 pole and 8 pole. It is 5.5 & 4 hp, 1450/722 rpm @ 50 Hz. I guess your 60 Hz motors will be a slightly different. The Sag 14 you are looking at would have had a single speed motor (I can tell from the spindle speed selector).

View attachment 149156

That photo is of my Sag 14. I have the original 4kw Siemens motor but swapped it out for a 3hp single phase unit. Max current draw is 11 amps at 240 volts so it happily runs from a standard 15 amp circuit.
There is an arrow indicating correct motor rotation. Be sure you don't run the motor backwards as the oil pump won't work. In other words, the clutch lever should lift up for 'normal" spindle rotation.
 
706jim,
Further up in this post I have a picure of the data plate from my machine is it similar to your original 4kW Siemens?

How many RPM is your 3HP replacement?

Thanks
Buck
 








 
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