Graziano sag12-s project
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  1. #1
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    Default Graziano sag12-s project

    I picked up a Graziano Sag12s as a future project.
    It has some issues but I think itíll be a very nice lathe once Iím finished cleaning it up and fixing it up.
    It is sitting in my side yard right now and I donít have power strung to it.
    One of the things it has me scratching my head right now is that the carriage hand wheel appears to be stuck as though some gearing is engaged. I canít move the carriage using the handwheel. The carriage lock is not engaged, and neither is the halfnut, so not those.
    I can move the cross slide.
    Anybody have English manuals?


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    Your new lathe looks very much system wise as older SAG's. The carriage feed lever is a possible source of your problem. If it is engaged it is in the mode to move the
    carriage either toward the headstock or the tailstock ( this same lever in the opposed position also operates cross slide travel) . If this machine has spent a long time outdoors or was at sometime pressure washed, water will collect in the housing of this lever which is attached to the apron directly below and to the right of the cross slide wheel. It may just be engaged or has a little rust holding it in position. There is also a load sensing spring trigger that will automatically disengage this in either cross slide or carriage travel. You might want to drop the apron and look for water intrusion before its sits too much longer if water intrusion is indeed the culprit.

    Chuck

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    Carriage:





    Apron:


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    Quote Originally Posted by rpseguin View Post
    I picked up a Graziano Sag12s as a future project.
    It has some issues but I think it’ll be a very nice lathe once I’m finished cleaning it up and fixing it up.
    It is sitting in my side yard right now and I don’t have power strung to it.
    One of the things it has me scratching my head right now is that the carriage hand wheel appears to be stuck as though some gearing is engaged. I can’t move the carriage using the handwheel. The carriage lock is not engaged, and neither is the halfnut, so not those.
    I can move the cross slide.
    Anybody have English manuals?

    i def recognize aragon's yard!!-great place!!!disneyland for us...

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    There's someone else on here with a 12s, that might be one of the few ways to get a manual.

    I don't think I've seen a Graz with an original DRO, is it missing the scales....assuming the Z fits on the front of the bed - like larger cousins.

    Your front way covers appear to have gone walkabout. Bit worried when seeing the missing cover for the change gear area, as that would be a bit of a pain to replicate, but looks like I can see it against the fence. What's the rectangular block on the end of the spindle?

    Are the carriage stops adjusted to be behind the apron, you'd think you'd have limited back and forth movement between the two even so - might be just stiction going by the rust on the way, even that tailstock wouldn't move too freely I bet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BillE View Post
    There's someone else on here with a 12s, that might be one of the few ways to get a manual.
    Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by BillE View Post
    I don't think I've seen a Graz with an original DRO, is it missing the scales....assuming the Z fits on the front of the bed - like larger cousins.
    This lathe doesnít have a DRO [that I know of]! I wish it did!


    Quote Originally Posted by BillE View Post
    Your front way covers appear to have gone walkabout. Bit worried when seeing the missing cover for the change gear area, as that would be a bit of a pain to replicate, but looks like I can see it against the fence. What's the rectangular block on the end of the spindle?
    The way covers are there, unless thereís more missing that I can tell.
    Yeah, I have the back of the headstock gear cover is there, itís just not on right now.
    Iím pretty sure that block is to support a 5C lever collet closer.

    Quote Originally Posted by BillE View Post
    Are the carriage stops adjusted to be behind the apron, you'd think you'd have limited back and forth movement between the two even so - might be just stiction going by the rust on the way, even that tailstock wouldn't move too freely I bet.
    It definitely feels and sounds like gears meshing. I can get the carriage to move a few mm, so not stiction.

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    Oil me quick !!!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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    Quote Originally Posted by ripperj View Post
    Oil me quick !!!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    :-)
    Itís been hosed down liberally with oil.
    It cam to me rusty as it is, but it is mostly light surface rust and dust/grime/oil.
    Cleans off pretty well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpseguin
    This lathe doesnít have a DRO [that I know of]! I wish it did!
    Ah, magnifying it, the usual push buttons up top. Looked vaguely like the same as an R3/IMC style boxy DRO.

    Quote Originally Posted by rpseguin
    The way covers are there, unless thereís more missing that I can tell.
    Should be a couple of M5 holes each side, fore and aft in the gap to hold the covers. Not on your own if they're missing!

    As suggested apron off might be required. Probably good step on most of these anyhow, even beyond the possibility of having been stored outside, if water based coolant has been used anywhere nearby. I did have a strange one a while back on a lathe that can't be mentioned here, where reversal of the scale on the handwheel made it a two hand job to move the carriage, hopefully something equally simple.

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    I am not too familiar w/ the 12S.. the meter and switch box looks like it is in the neighborhood of where the thread chasing dial would live on other SAG's. The open screw holes
    might also be points of entry for water. On my SAG 14 this occurred as one of the tapered alignment pins on the forward part of the carriage was AWOL.
    Saved it just in time as it had been pressure washed. Also found water in the internals of the carriage feed friction clutch just aft of the quick change gear box.

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    I found these sheet metal parts last night in my cribbing. I must have forgotten about it.
    They are painted the same blue color as the lathe




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    In luck!

    Be interesting to see how the reeves drive has held up too. That Holbrook(?) you had, all going well?

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    Hi rpseguin,

    There is a SAG 12S manual on this excellent website, free to download:

    Graziano SAG 12 & 12S

    As for the carriage not moving - try turning the headstock spindle by hand, with the feed shaft engaged, then check to see if the carriage moves. If it does move, then the feed engagement lever on the front of the carriage might be engaged. This lever can be a bit weird, it gives trouble at times. You lift the lever for longitudinal feed, push it down for cross slide feed.

    You can try the same test with the lead screw engaged (a little lever on the feed gearbox selects between feed or lead screw) to check that the half nuts are not engaged.

    On second thoughts, try the above tests with care, just in case there is something wrong inside the carriage.

    Actually, if the feed/leadscrew selector is put into "neutral", you should be able to turn the feed shaft and lead screw by hand to check if they are free.

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    That is the manual of the Graziano 12S I forwarded to passion-usinages
    That is what I do with all the manuals I make into a PDF
    Send it to passion-usinages More people should do so to get a good libory of manuals at one place
    The e-mail to send it to is [email protected]

    Nice machines although the reeves drive was abanded real quick
    The later Maho Graziano GR100W had the gearbox with clutches again
    I have one right now
    http://veltmanmachines.nl/en/vm/lathes/draaibank-maho-graziano-gr100w/

    Peter

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    The feed lever is engaged. Lift it up to horizontal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wesg View Post
    The feed lever is engaged. Lift it up to horizontal.
    I think youíre right.
    It is mostly horizontal, but I cannot move it either direction, so it feels engaged.

    I did rotate the spindle by hand both with feed rod disengaged, as well as engaged, but I did not see the carriage move. I wasnít really paying attention to the cross slide, so I wonder if it movedÖ I was only able to spin the spindle very slowly by hand so itís possible something did move and I didnít notice it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpseguin View Post
    I found these sheet metal parts last night in my cribbing. I must have forgotten about it.
    They are painted the same blue color as the lathe
    AHH! lucky you, those are the "front way covers" that billE was talking about. they cover the ways near the headstock, where the tailstock ways and the heavier "plate" way covers end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cyanidekid View Post
    AHH! lucky you, those are the "front way covers" that billE was talking about. they cover the ways near the headstock, where the tailstock ways and the heavier "plate" way covers end.
    Yeah, I figured it out quickly after bringing them to the lathe.
    I need to fix the bends/dents, but theyíll work fine

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    Top right handle on the headstock should have an airplane and bicycle graphic for direct drive and back gear. In between would be false neutral that makes it easier to spin it by hand.

    I haven't played with the feed kick out adjustment very much, or at all for several years, but its possible if its cranked in too much it may jam the feed lever. But I think it would prevent it from being engaged.


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