Graziano SAG14 clutch drag
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  1. #1
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    Default Graziano SAG14 clutch drag

    Hi guys!!

    This is my firts post here, since I'm new to machining.
    Bought a old neglected SAG14 and the clutch would drag so I could only change gears with motor off.
    Took the clutch appart and found some broken springs between the discs

    20201031_171753-1-.jpg

    20201102_150210-1-.jpg

    20201102_150226-1-.jpg

    Local company wants good money for 500 springs when the lathe uses only 42
    Anyone here ever experienced something similar? How did you work it in the end?
    Last edited by RockSolidHugo; 11-06-2020 at 12:09 PM. Reason: tags

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  3. #2
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    Any evidence of a name on the clutch?

    Keith Price down here possibly has those bits, as he sells plates and complete clutches, but I wouldn't expect cheap! I got several dozen non-critical small beehive style compression springs for a few bucks from alibaba a few years back, maybe that's an option.

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  5. #3
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    RockSolidHugo,

    A PM member Lofty wrote about his SAG 180 (very similar to the SAG 14) which had a dragging clutch with broken springs.

    He bought new springs from Keith Price in Australia, but said he took the last of them.

    See this thread, in particular, post # 24, 25, 27, 42, 45, 49, 52, 54, 58. Post #52 says the clutch still drags, so I am not sure what the answer is.

    Bought a SAG 180

    If you have one good spring, would you mind doing a drawing of it please? Or write a description e.g. wire diameter, outside diameter, overall length etc.

    I would like to dismantle my Sag 14 clutch one day and I guess it will need new springs too.

    It would be good to hear about any other problems and solutions you find with the clutch repair, thanks!

    Peter

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    A few Graziano parts suppliers have been mentioned on this forum:

    -A supplier of clutches and other Graziano parts (Italy): Ugo Montagano, e-mail: [email protected]

    TOURS – LATHES - DREHMASCHINEN:
    CMT – PADOVANI – EST TICINO – GRAZIANO – PBR – GRAZIOLI –
    GORNATI – MERLI – NOSOTTI – PERNO – OMG ZANOLETTI - usw

    Spare parts for Italian lathes.

    Are you looking for spare parts for Italian tooling machines?
    To receive soon an offer, specify:
    · machine manufacturer
    · machine model
    · production year
    · reference number or description of the spare part

    Best Regards

    Ugo Montagano
    Corso Lodi 47
    I - 20139 Milano
    T +39 025469135
    F +39 0294307647
    [email protected]

    -----------------------------------------------------

    PM poster “elliot” from Italy wrote in 2007:

    You will be able to find whichever spare parts for the lathes Graziano near: mechanical workshop Giunco Sergio 15050 Carbonara Scrivia (To) Genoa road n°14 phone:0131 892033. Mr. Giunco is a lot competent and his warehouse is a lot supplied. Unfortunately he doesn't speak English and he doesn't trade by Internet but he sends in all the world. Ciao


    ---------------------------------------------

    -A supplier of new clutches ( Keith Price, Australia, PM member “Archdale” in a 2010 PM thread): "I stock plates and complete clutches etc. including Graziano lathes. I stock in excess of 3 tonnes of clutch and brakes for most makes of machines ever made over the past 60 odd years from all around the world.
    If I can help, just drop me a line" [email protected]
    Welcome to Keith Price Machine Tools


    ------------------------------------------------

    Graziano is part of DMG Mori, might be worth a try?

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    Looks similar to a small motorcycle oil-bath clutch. Spare springs from one of those might work, if you can find the right make and model.
    Maybe visit some motorcycle parts dealers and try matching spring dimensions?

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    I had an intake valve spring fail in a tiny model engine. I replaced the broken spring with one of about the same diameter and free length but with obviously less resistance (smaller spring constant). It worked just fine even cycling about 4000 times per minute.

    I'm suggesting that your clutch will probably work fine with springs that are similar but not necessarily identical to the ones that have failed.

    It's certainly worth a try.

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    Thank you Peter.
    The clutch was made by Baruffaldi but they are not replying my emails. I also looked on some Italian forums and discovered some other lathe manufacturers were also using Baruffaldi clutches.
    opera-snapshot_2020-11-08_160335_mail.google.com.jpg
    I made contact via email with a Italian company that sells clutches and parts for what seems to be direct replicas of the original clutches called Corbetta. I believe the FDA 069 clutch dimensions corresponds to the Baruffaldi clutch in my SAG14 lathe Produzione Freni e Frizioni Industriali | Corbetta Srl Milano
    They sell the springs (1€ each), discs or complete sets with 120€ minimum order
    opera-snapshot_2020-11-08_154428_drive-v.ru.jpg
    The second option was to have the springs made locally at a 100€ rate for 500 units.
    opera-snapshot_2020-11-08_154222_drive-v.ru.jpg
    Anyway, I chose to buy the 500 springs and make them available no anyone who faces the same problem as me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter S View Post
    RockSolidHugo,

    If you have one good spring, would you mind doing a drawing of it please? Or write a description e.g. wire diameter, outside diameter, overall length etc.

    Peter
    As requested
    20201113_101259-1-.jpg

    Each clutch set uses 7+7 discs and 21 springs

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    RSH,

    Thanks very much for the clutch information and the spring dimensions.

    Please let us know how the rebuild goes.

    Thanks,

    Peter

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    Quote Originally Posted by RockSolidHugo
    The clutch was made by Baruffaldi but they are not replying my emails.
    I don't think they have any interest in supplying parts, but they'll repair them....if the springs alone aren't sufficient. The contact I had there was this guy - https://it.linkedin.com/in/angelo-te...le_search-card

    Like Peter, be interested to hear your result.

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    Drag no more!
    Finally had a phone call this morning telling me the 500 spring batch was ready.
    20201130_133535.jpg

    20201130_133809.jpg
    Couldnt help myself and spent the whole afternoon putting both clutches together. Fiddly little things , had to improvise to assemble each set
    20201130_141647.jpg

    20201130_142447.jpg
    Before taking the plates appart, I noticed one (#1 in the photo) of the actuators was slightly longer the rest. The clockwise clutch came with all #2s , the ccw came with one #1 and two #4s, meaning....the long #1 was always in contact with the fork plate (even in neutral) , therefore pressing the plates slightly.
    20201130_143107.jpg
    I ground #1's tip to match the rest of them.
    This, together with a few broken springs was enough for the clutch to allow movement through the shaft, accelerating some cogs when changing speed and mashing them before engaging.
    Now...to sell 458 springs
    I am in Portugal,will ship worldwide if anyone needs some.
    Last edited by RockSolidHugo; 11-30-2020 at 03:56 PM. Reason: Not enough photos

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    RockSolidHugo,

    Good to hear you have made progress!
    Have you had the lathe running yet?
    I am interested in a couple of spring sets, if they are working OK.
    Thanks,
    Peter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter S View Post
    RockSolidHugo,

    Good to hear you have made progress!
    Have you had the lathe running yet?
    I am interested in a couple of spring sets, if they are working OK.
    Thanks,
    Peter
    Hey Peter

    I have had the lathe running and all seems to work ok,changing speeds with no problem.
    There is minor movement o the the lowest speed when cold (15ºC) but I know the plates are not new and they're not 100% straight.
    Springs are good quality and have been strain relieved but only time will tell.
    There is one little problem. When reaching for the clutch the first time, I took the motor out for a wash
    20201031_102956.jpg

    Got it back nice and clean but after testing the clutch it was making excessive bearing noise.
    20201201_104749.jpg
    Original unprotected bearings must have gotten grit and water in during the cleaning process.
    20201201_104734.jpg

    20201201_104817.jpg

    Beginner's mistake, I know but in my defense I can say the bearings were old, the grease was dry and I did take (not enough) precautions to avoid getting water in

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    Peculiar that there's an odd man out on those clutch fingers. Would have thought they'd maybe have different length ones if the clutch stack varied in height sufficiently....but all being identical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BillE View Post
    Peculiar that there's an odd man out on those clutch fingers. Would have thought they'd maybe have different length ones if the clutch stack varied in height sufficiently....but all being identical.
    Yes, quite strange. But even stranger is the hole position where the finger pins go, in the clucth shaft.Some where further back than others meaning they would need different length fingers to get it all levelled and acttuated at the same time. Sorry but I lack technical language to explain it better and I did not take any photos

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