Graziano SAG14 Spindle Taper

lathehand · Sep 26, 2005

Does anyone know the spindle taper of a SAG14? The diameter at the nose is about 2 3/16", large for Morse #5 and small for #6. Doesn't appear to be a Jarno either. I need to make a Morse #4 to R8 sleeve similar to the Deckeldapter but shorter. I would be nice to fit this into a reducing sleeve and into the spindle of the Graziano to machine the R8.

TIA
Carl

GizmoWizard · Sep 27, 2005

Carl-
Funny, I start the DeckelDapters in the Morse 5 spindle nose of my SAG12. I'm afraid I have no idea what the SAG14 has for a spindle bore, though, sorry. I use a 5-4 Morse sleeve to hold a 4-3 Morse sleeve, which is the workpiece I start with, and bore it to just shy of .950". I then rough the R-8 cone, tap for the remover gizmo, and ream the .950 to size.
Then I pop the 4-3 out of the 5-4, trim the tang off, and finish the cone in the Deckel. That way I can use the power z feed for a fine finish and hit the correct angle by carefully tweaking the angle of the vertical head in advance. I mount a boring bar on the table, sort of turning the FP1 into a vertical lathe with a cockeyed spindle.
The big boss on the end of the DeckelDapter involves another set of operations, of course.
I'm curious how much shorter you want to make your adapter. The R-8 is fairly long, and you need some purchase on both ends, not just the cone.

-Paul

lathehand · Sep 27, 2005

Paul: Thanks for the detailed reply. Here's what I need: I have the workhead from an Elite tool and cutter grinder and am going to use it on my #1 LeBlond T&C. The workhead has a Morse #4 taper. I tried #3 end mill holders but they were too long - there is not enough cross-slide travel to use them with end mills, especially long ones. I looked at your DeckelDapter and thought they were too long also. A trial fit with an R8 collet showed that a thin wall sleeve would allow the large end of the collet to almost come flush with the end of the workhead spindle. There is very little force in grinding cutters so the rigidity of the sleeve is not a problem.

That your SAG12 is Morse #5 encourages me to guess that I might have a Morse #6 - maybe a short version. A 6 x 4 sleeve is about $40 - hmmm.

Carl

Marc · Sep 27, 2005

Carl,

I had the same problem on my French Ramo lathe L00 spindle.

Turned out to be a metric 5 % cone.

Just a thought.

Marc

TNB · Sep 27, 2005

Hi Marc

It's nice to hear from another RAMO owner.
I have a pretty old RAMO T36 on wich I do most of my lathe work.
Wich model do you have ? Are you happy with it ?

Marc · Sep 27, 2005

Hi T.

I have a T36 also.

I really like it because it's such a rigid machine while still quite accurate.

It's a very good combination with my 102.

Marc

lathehand · Sep 27, 2005

Marc: 5% taper: Great idea. I'll set up a dial indicator and check. In the beginning it was easier to ask about the taper, but now is the time to get the tools out and get serious. I've only encountered a metric taper expressed in per cent once before, about a month ago, but didn't think of it in this application. I'll post the results.

Carl

Marc · Sep 28, 2005

T.,

when I bought my T36 10 years ago unfortunately it was missing the gears and gears support.

I made them myself and the lathe is for metric threads fully functional but I would still like to get the original gears.

Any chance of finding them in France at a reasonable price ?

Marc

TNB · Sep 29, 2005

Marc

Untill last year, I knew a scrapyard in Marseille where you could find tons of RAMO, ERNAULT-SOMUA, DEVALLIERE parts... And for reasonnable prices !

Unfortunately, the guy finally got rid of most of this kind of stuff to focus on used automotive equipment...

I'll keep an eye opened for you, but as you probably know, matchine tool parts are now pretty hard to find (it's a matter of chance).
The days when conventional machines were scrapped by millions are gone now, especially for that kind of small "ideal-for-the-HSM" machines.

lathehand · Oct 2, 2005

So I get out the dial test indicator and mag base and check the spindle taper. Looks like 0.021 in per inch (one side) which is 0.042 in(dia) per inch and .504 inch per foot. Not quite a 5% taper (it's 4.2%), in fact not quite anything. The closest is Brown & Sharp #14 at .5000 in/ft. Is this a likely candidate? The diameter of the small end of the taper matches B&S #14 at 2", and I have not tried to find the depth. The mystery deepens.

CW

Peter S · Oct 7, 2005

Carl,

I found the headstock socket for our Sag 14 at work, and took a few measurements. (There are no markings on it, but it is possibly original).

I have changed my nice metric measurements into inch-speak

The inside taper is MT4.

The overall length is 4.409", plus another 1/8" of reduced diameter where you hit it with a removal bar.

Working from the large end, it is 2.1956" dia, and remains this diameter, parallel, for a length of 0.875". I guess this is to get your dead centre out a reasonable distance through the carrier plate.

The taper portion is therefore 3.534" long.

We have a MT4 lap with a long parallel shank. I chucked this and fitted the socket to this "mandrel" . It wasn't running better than a few thou at one end.
I set up a clock on centre height, and used the carriage dial markings to get my longitudinal travel.

So this isn't perfect by a long shot, but may help you track down the taper.

I got 0.0886" clock travel with 3.300" carriage travel.

That looks like 0.0537" taper per inch (included)
or 0.6442" per ft.

The centre portion of the taper is relieved, so there are two approx 1" long ground tapered end portions seperated by the relieved centre portion approx 1.5" long.

Let me stress once again - these are not measurements to make a taper from, just to help identification. I have been really busy of late, but if you need more info, let me know, I should have more time to try some more accurate measurements.

lathehand · Oct 8, 2005

Peter: This internet thing is wunnerful! I'm sitting in California scratching my head over an Italian lathe and someone in New Zealand helps out. First, my thanks, also for the inch-speak. Your measurements are probably more accurate. Mine were taken over 0.8 in of travel with a bit of a dodgy set-up.

A Morse #6 taper is .6256 in/ft, a little smaller than your measured .6442 in/ft. Metric taper: your figures are 5.4%, still a possibility. Given that Graziano used Morse #4 for the SAG 12, I'm going to take a chance and buy a Morse 6-4 reducing sleeve and give it a try. I'll post the results.

Carl

vder · Jan 15, 2006

Hi Carl.
Did you ever sort out the taper on the SAG 14 head stock? I have recently purchased one as well and would like to set it up for 5C collets and also use a dead center, so I would like to know what you found out.

Also my lathe seems in excelent shape but there may be a gear missing in the area whare the drive belts are , would it be posible for you to send me a picture showing the drive belt area.

One of the local technical colleges here has a few SAG 12 and a couple of SAG 180 which seem to be SAG 14. I got to copy all the drawings for the whole lathe including all the gear boxes but the are where the BACK gears? are seem to be different then the lathe I have.

thanks in advance

Vili

lathehand · Jan 18, 2006

Vili: That project has stalled, and thus joined more than a few others. Someday I will need that piece and it will suddenly become a priority. So I do not yet know anything more about the spindle taper. I keep hoping I will stumble across a #6-4 reducer on ebay.

There are 3 gears in a nearly vertical line at the right hand side of the headstock (inside the door at the end.) That is all of the externally accessible gearing. In addition, I have 9 change gears to mount in their place. Because it is an all geared headstock, there are no back gears as such. You will notice that the spindle speed on the selector on the front of the headstock reads when it is at about a 15 deg. angle clockwise from the vertical and at the bottom. I usually have to feel around rotating the "knob" until it is properly seated in its detent.

I do not have a draw-bar type collet closer for this lathe. The headstock is so long that it would be quite a reach anyway. I use a Sjogren closer on a D1-5 mount. One advantage of this is that collets can be run in and out of the closer by slightly engaging the clutch while holding the closer hand-wheel. Works a treat!

Enjoy your SAG14. It is a very good lathe.

Carl

vder · Jan 25, 2006

Hi Carl.
Thanks for the reply. The "back gear is as the drawings indicate. Temperarely while the previous owner tried to service the bearing behind the drive pulley, they stuck the pulley onto the lower of the three gear shafts, which through me off. It seem that I have a few of those gears missing for a complete set. I dont have any for the lower drive gear( with key) and have two idlers and also missing the bushing for the idler gears. I have to check them out on the tech colledge but they may not have a complete set. I would appreciate a teeth count for all the gears you have including telling me which ones are for the lower keyed shaft. how is your backlash on toyr carrige. Mine is terrible. I found the acme nuts are worn, prbably poor lurrication. There is an adjustment but mine can no longer be adjusted( if you need info on adjustment,let me know). Will need a new set. Have you any idea where I may buy some parts, gears, nut? else I have to have them made.

I did source a MT 6 to MT4 or MT5 at aprox $20-$25US. I plan on getting one with a MT 4 dead center to be able to turn between centers. I eventuall found a large face plate 17" an 8" 4Jaw and an "new" 8" three jaw from Harbour freight (for $69 no mount). It is hard to find D1-5 mount stuff. Two of my Cams on the spindle chuck mount are broken. All yours OK? Do you have a manual? I have a drawing set if you need it. If you run across a collet chuck like yours reasonable price let me know.

Thanks Vili

lathehand · Jan 25, 2006

Vili: Send me an e-mail - I'd send you one but for some reason my computer goes nuts if I click on the e-mail link in the bulletin board. I don't read this board regularly and it will be easier if we continue off-forum.

carl

Peter S · Jan 26, 2006

I had a bit of spare time after work today, so I measured the reducing sleeve on the Sag 14, as carefully as I could. I don't have any gauge blocks, rollers etc....

I machined up a 4MT stub and fitted the reducing sleeve to it. I checked, and it there was no run out on the sleeve once fitted to the stub (ie less than .005mm).

I used 2 clocks - one to measure the taper and one to measure the longitudinal carriage movement.

I used a 75mm long micrometer standard as a distance piece, zeroing the 2nd clock with and without the standard.

For a distance of 75mm moved longitudinally I got a reading of 1.99mm on the taper.

Please check my calculations, but I think that works out to 0.6368 inch per foot on diameter.

Sorry about the mix of metric and inch, I figure the important dimension you need is the taper, in inches per foot?

Ideally, if you made one of these, you would grind it between centres, and so be able to remove it from the grinder and try it in the spindle with blue, and make adjustments on the grinder as you go...

You could do the same thing on a lathe, even having centres which you turn off later by machining the internal taper with the reducing sleeve fitted to the headstock.
Better still if you guys can find a match for this...

MASTERKINS · Feb 3, 2006

Hi! I am new to this!
Nice to meet another Graziano owner!
I have SAG 180 (SAG 14), and it has a No.4 Morse taper in the tailstock.
I must say this is a very good lathe, far superior to the Harrisons, Boxfords, etc I have been used to :cool:

I am currently looking for any operator's info. I did contact Italy, who will supply a new manual, but with the shipping, cost, etc it is expensive. If anyone can help, I would be obliged.
Now I must go, i think I am having a 'turn'!

vder · Feb 12, 2006

This is to "Lathehand" . I cant send you Email as your profile does not allow it. I think you have to edit your profile to allow email private and public to be sent to you.

lathehand · Feb 13, 2006

Replying in order:

Peter: I printed your drawing two weeks ago thinking it would only be a day or two and I would play with the numbers and see what conclusions could be drawn. Never thought it would take this long. And you might want to check my calcs! Your measurments do not match the Morse #6 or a metric % taper. I calculated the measurement error from a standard taper that would yield the measurements that you obtained. I assumed the big end was correct as you did not list the small end diameter. For the Morse #6 there would be a difference of .003" between your measured taper of .6386 IPF and the standard .62565 IPF. And for a 2.5% taper the difference would be .0045". Not much reason to prefer one over the other. And a rather small error in any of the measurements would make it difficult to decide the actual taper. I have a T&C grinder, maybe I ought to make the effort to make a bushing - and I have a #4 finishing reamer - running myself out of excuses here.

Thanks for making the measurements.

Masterkins: No help on the manual. I've enjoyed a turn or two on the Graziano myself - great machine.

vder: Profile edited, and e-mail sent.

Graziano SAG14 Spindle Taper

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