mjk
Titanium
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Location
- Wilmington DE USA
Anyone know what spindle mount these lathes use?
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Heidenbeck & Harbeck VDF E3 spindle nose
- Thread starter mjk
- Start date
- Replies 34
- Views 31,190
Arno
Stainless
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2003
- Location
- Toronto, ON
Depends.
Standard was DIN 55022/8. If your machine has a gap and bridge it most likely would have been a D1-8 (ah, für Amerika!).
In either case the taper and flange configurations are the same. Difference is with the locking of the bayonet flange and nut versus the cam-lock pins.
Very early 50's machines _may_ have had an L-2 taper.
Arno
Standard was DIN 55022/8. If your machine has a gap and bridge it most likely would have been a D1-8 (ah, für Amerika!).
In either case the taper and flange configurations are the same. Difference is with the locking of the bayonet flange and nut versus the cam-lock pins.
Very early 50's machines _may_ have had an L-2 taper.
Arno
mjk
Titanium
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Location
- Wilmington DE USA
Thanks for the reply.
I was considering bidding on
Lathe on Ebay
But after relizing I don't have a crane to remove the chuck
, the thing was just to big. Shame, it looked like a good deal
I was considering bidding on
Lathe on Ebay
But after relizing I don't have a crane to remove the chuck
, the thing was just to big. Shame, it looked like a good deal
Arno
Stainless
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2003
- Location
- Toronto, ON
Wow, that is an old bird. Doesn't even have the safety engagement lever at the apron and even has a Norton swing for feed changes.
The close up of the head stock shows it clearly to be an L type spindle nose.
The E, V and E3H use all the same bed and haystack innards. The V and E3H just have a little taller casting at the bottom. Because of the relatively low centre height, the E is like a brick ship yard.
Let me know if you ever come across a square-ish head stock 17R0, 19R0 or even 21R0. Much lighter than the E/V series but everything is there and where it is supposed to be without looking.
Cheers,
Arno
The close up of the head stock shows it clearly to be an L type spindle nose.
The E, V and E3H use all the same bed and haystack innards. The V and E3H just have a little taller casting at the bottom. Because of the relatively low centre height, the E is like a brick ship yard.
Let me know if you ever come across a square-ish head stock 17R0, 19R0 or even 21R0. Much lighter than the E/V series but everything is there and where it is supposed to be without looking.
Cheers,
Arno
JimK
Diamond
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2003
- Location
- Berkeley Springs, WV, USA
I'll have to believe him that the lathe is an H&H but it's design says Wohlenberg all over it.
Wohlenberg made their "E" series in swing sizes from 19" E 3 to 37 1/2" E 800V.
Wohlenberg's lathes were German as Lillie Marlaine and better looking. They are very close to the top of my short list of the world's best lathes.
The H&H lathes sold here in the US were the lighter RO series.
Since VDF were an industrial combine H&H may have run a few of Wohlenberg's E series in the smaller sizes at Hamburg to ease backlogs at Hannover.
I would be very surprised to see an American "L" type spindle nose on a VDF lathe, especially that early. The DIN spindle nose was as good as the D1 series cam lock and the lathes were usually ordered with their chucks and faceplates.
Wohlenberg made their "E" series in swing sizes from 19" E 3 to 37 1/2" E 800V.
Wohlenberg's lathes were German as Lillie Marlaine and better looking. They are very close to the top of my short list of the world's best lathes.
The H&H lathes sold here in the US were the lighter RO series.
Since VDF were an industrial combine H&H may have run a few of Wohlenberg's E series in the smaller sizes at Hamburg to ease backlogs at Hannover.
I would be very surprised to see an American "L" type spindle nose on a VDF lathe, especially that early. The DIN spindle nose was as good as the D1 series cam lock and the lathes were usually ordered with their chucks and faceplates.
Arno
Stainless
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2003
- Location
- Toronto, ON
Jim,
please refer to my post of 21 February, 2005 23:11 in this matter.
As explained before, Vereinigte Drehbank Fabrieken (VDF) was an Association of 4, post WWII 3 independent German lathe manufacturers that created a unified lathe design and shared in world wide marketing with offices in Frankfurt/Main.
(Franz Baun, Zerbst, East Germany, was not in post war group.)
The co-operatively designed Einheitsdrehbank, that's where the E come from, was built in 3 sizes, small, medium and large.
E3 Heidenreich & Harbeck, Hamburg
E5 Gebrüder Wohlenberg, Göppingen
E7 H. Wohlenberg, Hannover
Later the V series (20 mm added to the bottom of the E headstock casting) was added and then 60 mm to make it an E3H.
Wohlenberg, due to their lower volume production of the larger sizes, was the first one to use the new Letter + 3(4) Digit designation in 1963, when their E800V became the V1000 and their W45V became the V1180. No non-VDF machines produced since there are no smaller machines produced that could interfere with the larger ones from Böhringer.
Later the V series (20 mm added to the bottom of the E headstock casting) was added and then 60 mm to make it an E3H.
Wohlenberg, due to their lower volume production of the larger sizes, was the first one to use the new Letter+3(4) Digit designation in 1963, when their E800V became the V1000 and their W45V became the V1180.
The January 16, 1964 VDF meeting in Frankfurt decided that the:
HHH non-VDF 18R0 will become the E355 and the 21R0 the M430. During the transitional time to the new designs, the S500 would be carried over as M530S.
GBG non-VDF 42D becomes E400 and 48D V500.
Oh , in case you wonder how I got that info, I managed to keep 3 spoiled Ozalid copy pages of the report when I was a month in the Draughting/Printing office while reconvalescing from an operation.
Also, the history of the Company and the Group was taught to those of us apprentices at HHH who were conducting Plant tours for visiting Northern European engineering schools and technical Universities.
I usually ended up with Scandinavian visitors as my school English, bad as it was, was still better than that of the next guy.
For your final enjoyment, you are aware that Shanghai Electric is the current owner of Wohlenberg Werkzeugmaschinen http://www.wohlenberg-werkzeugmaschinen.de/wohl230701/wohlenberg%20english.htm
Cheers,
Arno
please refer to my post of 21 February, 2005 23:11 in this matter.
As explained before, Vereinigte Drehbank Fabrieken (VDF) was an Association of 4, post WWII 3 independent German lathe manufacturers that created a unified lathe design and shared in world wide marketing with offices in Frankfurt/Main.
(Franz Baun, Zerbst, East Germany, was not in post war group.)
The co-operatively designed Einheitsdrehbank, that's where the E come from, was built in 3 sizes, small, medium and large.
E3 Heidenreich & Harbeck, Hamburg
E5 Gebrüder Wohlenberg, Göppingen
E7 H. Wohlenberg, Hannover
Later the V series (20 mm added to the bottom of the E headstock casting) was added and then 60 mm to make it an E3H.
Wohlenberg, due to their lower volume production of the larger sizes, was the first one to use the new Letter + 3(4) Digit designation in 1963, when their E800V became the V1000 and their W45V became the V1180. No non-VDF machines produced since there are no smaller machines produced that could interfere with the larger ones from Böhringer.
Later the V series (20 mm added to the bottom of the E headstock casting) was added and then 60 mm to make it an E3H.
Wohlenberg, due to their lower volume production of the larger sizes, was the first one to use the new Letter+3(4) Digit designation in 1963, when their E800V became the V1000 and their W45V became the V1180.
The January 16, 1964 VDF meeting in Frankfurt decided that the:
HHH non-VDF 18R0 will become the E355 and the 21R0 the M430. During the transitional time to the new designs, the S500 would be carried over as M530S.
GBG non-VDF 42D becomes E400 and 48D V500.
Oh , in case you wonder how I got that info, I managed to keep 3 spoiled Ozalid copy pages of the report when I was a month in the Draughting/Printing office while reconvalescing from an operation.
Also, the history of the Company and the Group was taught to those of us apprentices at HHH who were conducting Plant tours for visiting Northern European engineering schools and technical Universities.
I usually ended up with Scandinavian visitors as my school English, bad as it was, was still better than that of the next guy.
For your final enjoyment, you are aware that Shanghai Electric is the current owner of Wohlenberg Werkzeugmaschinen http://www.wohlenberg-werkzeugmaschinen.de/wohl230701/wohlenberg%20english.htm
Cheers,
Arno
mjk
Titanium
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Location
- Wilmington DE USA
Thanks for all the info.
So Arno and Jim.
Would the lathe listed on Ebay been a good deal at the $750.00 and/or how high $ could it go before it wasn't?
I was looking for a 16 x 40 TOS when I found the lathe in question. It was just to big.
I have a TOS FNK25A vertical mill that is a fantastic machine.
So Arno and Jim.
Would the lathe listed on Ebay been a good deal at the $750.00 and/or how high $ could it go before it wasn't?
I was looking for a 16 x 40 TOS when I found the lathe in question. It was just to big.
I have a TOS FNK25A vertical mill that is a fantastic machine.
JimK
Diamond
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2003
- Location
- Berkeley Springs, WV, USA
Arno:
Carey Machinery in Baltimore had an office in Hyattsville, Maryland in walking distance from my house at the time.
One day in the early 1960's I raided their literature file and came away with about two pounds (1Kg.) of VDF full color catalogs.
Wohlenberg at the time had considerable variances in their carriage and head stock dsigns. The D and L series were the smallest, but at 18" swing they almost overlapped the S series (19"). The S series did overlap the E series The machines looked similar but the head stock gearing was quite different.
The D and L series look quite a bit like H&H machines, but the catalog says Wohlenberg.
One of the prises of my haul was the collection of Ravensburg lathe catalogs. The Ravensburg machine wasn't mentioned as a component of VDF, but Carey had the line right along with them.
Ravensburg built a line of specialty large swing light duty lathes. They could take light cuts on very large work. Many of their lathes were portable and of modular construction.
I can no longer find any reference to the company. Do you know what happeded to Ravensburg?
The only piece of Wohlenberg equipment here is a small paper cutter. The mechanical workmanship and design are excellent, the electrical system is trash. One More rewiring job for Jimmy.
I am saddened that a fine old German company had to be sold off to foreign interests. I had hoped that the company could make it on their own in their home land.
The fact that Wohlenberg had an excellent name in machine tools and bindery equipment led me to beileve that the comapny would be stable during the up and down cycles of both the printing and the manufacturing industries.
Carey Machinery in Baltimore had an office in Hyattsville, Maryland in walking distance from my house at the time.
One day in the early 1960's I raided their literature file and came away with about two pounds (1Kg.) of VDF full color catalogs.
Wohlenberg at the time had considerable variances in their carriage and head stock dsigns. The D and L series were the smallest, but at 18" swing they almost overlapped the S series (19"). The S series did overlap the E series The machines looked similar but the head stock gearing was quite different.
The D and L series look quite a bit like H&H machines, but the catalog says Wohlenberg.
One of the prises of my haul was the collection of Ravensburg lathe catalogs. The Ravensburg machine wasn't mentioned as a component of VDF, but Carey had the line right along with them.
Ravensburg built a line of specialty large swing light duty lathes. They could take light cuts on very large work. Many of their lathes were portable and of modular construction.
I can no longer find any reference to the company. Do you know what happeded to Ravensburg?
The only piece of Wohlenberg equipment here is a small paper cutter. The mechanical workmanship and design are excellent, the electrical system is trash. One More rewiring job for Jimmy.
I am saddened that a fine old German company had to be sold off to foreign interests. I had hoped that the company could make it on their own in their home land.
The fact that Wohlenberg had an excellent name in machine tools and bindery equipment led me to beileve that the comapny would be stable during the up and down cycles of both the printing and the manufacturing industries.
JimK
Diamond
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2003
- Location
- Berkeley Springs, WV, USA
mjk:
If the lathe is decent then the bid price is very good. It by rights should go higher, but as always Inspect, Inspect, Inspect.
Here is a piece of capital equipment going for a price that is less than the average American pays to take the kiddies to Disney World.
Buy it at that price or mear it an pay to have it rebuilt and it is still a good deal!
If the lathe is decent then the bid price is very good. It by rights should go higher, but as always Inspect, Inspect, Inspect.
Here is a piece of capital equipment going for a price that is less than the average American pays to take the kiddies to Disney World.
Buy it at that price or mear it an pay to have it rebuilt and it is still a good deal!
Arno
Stainless
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2003
- Location
- Toronto, ON
Jim,
just because a dealer handles two lines it does not make it the same manufacturer.
Cosa US had Weiler and Ravensburg at the same time.
Cosa Canada had the Whacheon lathe labeled COSA (when we were forced to import machine through our Korean sister company) and the Weiler, as well as Okuma & Howa at the same time.
Canada also had to import a certain dollar value from Taiwan and had the Lillian turret mills labeled COSA, but that did not mean that Lillian or Deckel owned each other.
Before the dates and model numbers given by me above, ONLY "E" and "V" MODELS were VDF machines. All other models by the different manufacturer were "House Lines", NOT, stress NOT VDF machines.
VDF was NOT selling machine in Germany. Each constituent company had their own distributors.
The VDF Division managers of McDougall lathes, a wholly owned subsidiary of the Canadian dealer Upton, Bradeen & James, came all from Boehringer and thus pushed in their competitive sizes the Boehringer house lines over the others in the group.
Really cheesed me off when I saw perfect HHH S500 applications at customers but the management pushed the GBG 44S model.
UBJ today is a wholly owned subsidiary of Boehringer in Germany, which in turns is a daughter of Industrie Werke Karlsruhe. IWK owned Schaerer and closed it down and owned SHW (Don's beloved Deckel FP6 & FP7) and closed it down.
Upton, Bradeen & James was founded in the early 50's by the Canadian managers of Fairbanks-Morse, Rudell Industrial Division, who were the agents for VDF in North America.
The ultimate joke for me today is that since last Fall, UBJ is the Romi importer.
When I left the service at UBJ to take an Order Clerk job at Cosa they took me to the show room and I almost walked out.
Here I was servicing and making main assembly of the "best lathes in the world" (by our own admission) and now was going to work for an outfit that handled lathes that looked as if they came over with the Arc (think of the looks of a Herbert 4D Senior pre-optive).
"The D and L series look quite a bit like H&H machines, but the catalog says Wohlenberg."
I would appreciate a scan of the page with the model designation and data.
Ravensburg
When Cosa US took on the distributorship for North America we became the Canadian agents by default.
None was ever sold during my time there I know of two large roll lathes sold somewhere in northern Quebec in the 90's.
Ravensburg became a subsidiary of Heyligenstaedt in 1998
http://www.heyligenstaedt.de/eng/start_e.htm
and is alive and kicking.
Seeing your note on light duty lathes.
In the spring of 1967 3 new Wohlenberg V800 were delivered to Jerry Hydraulics, Div. of Abex Industries in Waterloo, ON.
We went in and after leveling removed the head stock and tail stock and scraped in 14" (fourteen) raiser blocks.
These machines were bought strictly for the machining of the swivel joint of the F111 wings.
Actual machining was relatively light duty but the single piece forging of the shaft (tube) and arm needed that swing. By starting with the Wohlenberg they still ended up with a very strong machine that could deliver the proper surface speeds.
I don't know what happened at Wohlenberg but before the lathe division was sold off AML in Chicago had bought the plant for the paper equipment. http://wohlenberg.de > english > history
Well, another epistle for the Biography shoe box.
Cheers,
Arno
just because a dealer handles two lines it does not make it the same manufacturer.
Cosa US had Weiler and Ravensburg at the same time.
Cosa Canada had the Whacheon lathe labeled COSA (when we were forced to import machine through our Korean sister company) and the Weiler, as well as Okuma & Howa at the same time.
Canada also had to import a certain dollar value from Taiwan and had the Lillian turret mills labeled COSA, but that did not mean that Lillian or Deckel owned each other.
Before the dates and model numbers given by me above, ONLY "E" and "V" MODELS were VDF machines. All other models by the different manufacturer were "House Lines", NOT, stress NOT VDF machines.
VDF was NOT selling machine in Germany. Each constituent company had their own distributors.
The VDF Division managers of McDougall lathes, a wholly owned subsidiary of the Canadian dealer Upton, Bradeen & James, came all from Boehringer and thus pushed in their competitive sizes the Boehringer house lines over the others in the group.
Really cheesed me off when I saw perfect HHH S500 applications at customers but the management pushed the GBG 44S model.
UBJ today is a wholly owned subsidiary of Boehringer in Germany, which in turns is a daughter of Industrie Werke Karlsruhe. IWK owned Schaerer and closed it down and owned SHW (Don's beloved Deckel FP6 & FP7) and closed it down.
Upton, Bradeen & James was founded in the early 50's by the Canadian managers of Fairbanks-Morse, Rudell Industrial Division, who were the agents for VDF in North America.
The ultimate joke for me today is that since last Fall, UBJ is the Romi importer.
When I left the service at UBJ to take an Order Clerk job at Cosa they took me to the show room and I almost walked out.
Here I was servicing and making main assembly of the "best lathes in the world" (by our own admission) and now was going to work for an outfit that handled lathes that looked as if they came over with the Arc (think of the looks of a Herbert 4D Senior pre-optive).
"The D and L series look quite a bit like H&H machines, but the catalog says Wohlenberg."
I would appreciate a scan of the page with the model designation and data.
Ravensburg
When Cosa US took on the distributorship for North America we became the Canadian agents by default.
None was ever sold during my time there I know of two large roll lathes sold somewhere in northern Quebec in the 90's.
Ravensburg became a subsidiary of Heyligenstaedt in 1998
http://www.heyligenstaedt.de/eng/start_e.htm
and is alive and kicking.
Seeing your note on light duty lathes.
In the spring of 1967 3 new Wohlenberg V800 were delivered to Jerry Hydraulics, Div. of Abex Industries in Waterloo, ON.
We went in and after leveling removed the head stock and tail stock and scraped in 14" (fourteen) raiser blocks.
These machines were bought strictly for the machining of the swivel joint of the F111 wings.
Actual machining was relatively light duty but the single piece forging of the shaft (tube) and arm needed that swing. By starting with the Wohlenberg they still ended up with a very strong machine that could deliver the proper surface speeds.
I don't know what happened at Wohlenberg but before the lathe division was sold off AML in Chicago had bought the plant for the paper equipment. http://wohlenberg.de > english > history
Well, another epistle for the Biography shoe box.
Cheers,
Arno
Arno
Stainless
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2003
- Location
- Toronto, ON
Unless the machine is in 1A condition and comes loaded with chucks, I personally wouldn't want one with an L spindle nose.
If the size is right, I would look for a 1965/68 E3/V3 which has the modern feed box and safety forward/reverse lever on the apron.
Then it would make sense to have the bed reground and the rest scraped in as it most likely will then out live the owner.
Arno
If the size is right, I would look for a 1965/68 E3/V3 which has the modern feed box and safety forward/reverse lever on the apron.
Then it would make sense to have the bed reground and the rest scraped in as it most likely will then out live the owner.
Arno
18R0 interest
Hi,
To Arno,
I read on Lathes.co.UK that some of the VDF machines were made in two flavors, a commercial grade with roller bearings and a Super Precision model with plain bearings. Through the 1950's and into the mid 1960's was this the case with the HHH 18RO models? Does anyone have a photo of such a machine so you can identify the plain bearing model vs the roller bearing model? I'd love to see what they look like. Many thanks for any information you can provide. Would these be worth the effort to restore if found in rough shape?
Mac
Hi,
To Arno,
I read on Lathes.co.UK that some of the VDF machines were made in two flavors, a commercial grade with roller bearings and a Super Precision model with plain bearings. Through the 1950's and into the mid 1960's was this the case with the HHH 18RO models? Does anyone have a photo of such a machine so you can identify the plain bearing model vs the roller bearing model? I'd love to see what they look like. Many thanks for any information you can provide. Would these be worth the effort to restore if found in rough shape?
Mac
Kees
Hot Rolled
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2007
- Location
- Netherlands
Could refer to the high speed 18-RO, but that is a total different lathe.Max 4000 RPM,6 speeds, no treading, air-cooled spindle bearings.Never seen one in real life.
Or could refer to the "werkzeugmacherdrehbanke erhohte genauigkeit" , but from the outside it is the same lathe, made with more tight tolerances. Spindlebearings were picked out to measure and the best were for these lathes.
Or could refer to the "werkzeugmacherdrehbanke erhohte genauigkeit" , but from the outside it is the same lathe, made with more tight tolerances. Spindlebearings were picked out to measure and the best were for these lathes.
HHH continued..
Maybe, I was under the impression that the plain bearing, super precision model, would have had a slower top spindle speed. What were the two different machines top spindle speeds? Did the plain bearing model have oil cups on the headstock?
Maybe, I was under the impression that the plain bearing, super precision model, would have had a slower top spindle speed. What were the two different machines top spindle speeds? Did the plain bearing model have oil cups on the headstock?
Kees
Hot Rolled
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2007
- Location
- Netherlands
Sorry, I just realize what "plain bearing" means.Those are used until the early 50's and can be reconized by the big nut on the front of the headstock.
Evolution of the VDF RO-types:
Early 21RO (around 1953) already camlock and roller bearings:
Late 50's:
Around 1965:
Evolution of the VDF RO-types:
Early 21RO (around 1953) already camlock and roller bearings:
Late 50's:
Around 1965:
Kees
Hot Rolled
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2007
- Location
- Netherlands
Mid 70's
About the topspeeds: a VDF could be ordered with the speedrange you want and topspeeds vary from 560 to 2000.
After 1968/1970 choice was limited to a topspeed of 2000 or 2500 RPM.Also around this period new names for the lathe's 18RO was not made any more, 21RO became Hambrug 430, 24RO became Hanseat 480.
Gildemeister became the new owner of H&H, in 80's story was over.
About the topspeeds: a VDF could be ordered with the speedrange you want and topspeeds vary from 560 to 2000.
After 1968/1970 choice was limited to a topspeed of 2000 or 2500 RPM.Also around this period new names for the lathe's 18RO was not made any more, 21RO became Hambrug 430, 24RO became Hanseat 480.
Gildemeister became the new owner of H&H, in 80's story was over.
Nice
Thank you Kees. That really explains the history. Are these excellent lathes? I still wonder if there is anything special today about a plain bearing lathe that only turns 560. Unless it's some kind of collectors item. Many thanks, Mac
Thank you Kees. That really explains the history. Are these excellent lathes? I still wonder if there is anything special today about a plain bearing lathe that only turns 560. Unless it's some kind of collectors item. Many thanks, Mac
Kees
Hot Rolled
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2007
- Location
- Netherlands
At this moment I own 3 18RO's , becuase of my small workshop I can use only one.But I love those small VDF's , in special the VDF's made around 1960-1964.
I also use a VDF S500, the "top-model" of the H&H lathe:
But that is a more heavy lathe, more suitable for larger parts.
I also use a VDF S500, the "top-model" of the H&H lathe:
But that is a more heavy lathe, more suitable for larger parts.
Arno
Stainless
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2003
- Location
- Toronto, ON
Sorry haven't been on the lathes list this year and did not get any notices about new posts to a subscribed thread (I guess that to be a result of the forum software upgrade).
I don't think any of the 15/18/21 R0's had any plain bearings from the 50's onwards.
Lathes with friction main bearings typically were in the 500-600 rpm range. Should that be sufficient for you a home made restoration for hobby use would be worth it.
Kees,
I'm not familiar with the "air bearing" 4000 rpm 18 R0.
Can you post some further detail?
The standard lathes were built to DIN 8605, Tool Maker accuracy.
That " Early 21RO (around 1953) already camlock and roller bearings:" shows a DIN 55021 Bajonet rather than Cam-Lock spindle nose.
You are right, after Gildemeister bought HHH in 1970 they used the Hamburg 430 and Hanseat 480 designations.
The main attraction for some buyers of the S500, being a heavy duty center lathe, is the smooth surface finish achievable due to the direct flat belt drive for finishing.
One thing I like to stress again is that none of the R0, S and RS (turrect lathes) were VDF lathes.
The V3, E3 and E3H were and the M530 / V630 which replaced them.
--
Arno
