Hercules version of the Graziano SAG 14.
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    Default Hercules version of the Graziano SAG 14.

    Hi,
    Looking at the Hercules version of the Graziano SAG 14.
    The sag 14 seems to be a good machine.
    What should I know about the Hercules version?
    Or the sag 14 in general.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    Hi,
    Looking at the Hercules version of the Graziano SAG 14.
    The sag 14 seems to be a good machine.
    What should I know about the Hercules version?
    Or the sag 14 in general.
    Beats me. I thot Hercules was a French lathe maker?

    Google finds Hercules Merli Clovis (Italy).

    And Herkules, with a "K" in Germany.

    Graziano's trail went cold long enough back (Deckel/Maho tie-in ==> DMG-Mori now?), there is as much mystery as fact showing up.

    SAG 14 was well-regarded enough.

    You talking branding exercise, joint-venture, licensed clone?

    Or simply a look-alike/workalike from an otherwise independent maker?

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    Not sure.
    Looks like the same castings as a Graziano but with a different cast in brand.

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    I don't know what the Hercules name means or how it came about, however I have saved photos of several "Graziano Hercules Sag 14" and 'Hercules Sag 14" lathes over the years.

    One thing seems clear from the photos I have - they are old lathes. They look like the oldest model Sag 14 or perhaps the Sag 180 which came before it. The most obvious difference to the later Graziano Sag 14's is the shape of the carriage-saddle area.

    I would say it comes down to the condition of the particular lathe you are looking at. If it has been looked after (lubricated) and is not worn out, then it should be a great machine. But there is a fair chance a lathe that old (1960's?) is pretty tired.All those photos I mentioned mostly show very sad looking examples.

    The place I used to work had a Sag 14 for about 30 years and it never gave any trouble, it still runs nicely in retirement in my home workshop.
    The reverse clutch needs adjustment or replacement, one day I might get around to it.

    The Sag 14's I have seen have hardened beds and survive well, though on mine the tailstock is badly worn down and I suspect the saddle ways are pretty worn too. I have seen larger Sags (e.g. Sag 22 ?) with badly scored ways, just plain worn out from 30-40 years service and being used without the headstock-end way covers fitted.

    Gearboxes and spindle bearings** seem indestructible, but it always pays to run the machine if possible and check all the gears, clutches, power feeds etc. If parts are available, they will be expensive.

    **Note, some Sag 180's had plain spindle bearings, not sure if any Sag 14's did, but they are probably best avoided or at least be very careful

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    Pictures? Would allow us to comment.

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    One thing I have noticed on all the Hercules Sag 14 lathe photos I have seen - they don't seem to have the "UCIMU" badge on the headstock.

    This identifies the manufacturer as a member of the Italian machine tool association.

    Does this mean the Hercules was not made in Italy? Or are these lathes older than the association, or manufactured before Graziano became a member?

    I don't know the answer to any of the above.

    I notice the way covers at the headstock end are missing - not a good sign.

    compac-sag-14.jpg sag-14-short-way-covers-10.jpg sag-14-way-covers-short.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    just curiosity, but it looks as if 3 out of the 6 Camlock pins are taken out from the collet chuck. What would be the reason to do so? Laziness?

    Charles

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles_nl View Post
    just curiosity, but it looks as if 3 out of the 6 Camlock pins are taken out from the collet chuck. What would be the reason to do so? Laziness?

    Charles
    They come that way. So do some face plates. Probably because they don't have the power exerted like a chuck?

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    Does the Graziano have unusual controls?
    I mean beyond normal variance?

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    Miguels244,

    The controls are all good, nothing unusual in my opinion.

    Clutch lever at headstock and on carriage - up for forward, down for reverse. No brake on these lathes, but the reverse clutch sometimes gets used to slow it down...reverse clutch maybe worn....

    Looking at carriage apron - working right from the longitudinal handwheel - little horizontal lever, lift for longitudinal feed, down for cross feed. Reverse feed directions on headstock.

    Next lever is the carriage lock. Normally the locking lever is at about 1 o'clock unclamped, 3 o'clock clamped.

    Further right, screw cutting half nut lever.

    One of the clever things about the Sag 14 headstock is that spindle speed gear changes are made using a single dial. Designed by a genius!

    BTW, the feed lever on the carriage can be finicky. It pays to check it works and stays engaged.

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    That Hercules has a roller bearing spindle rather than a spindle bush, I can tell by the collar behind the chuck. It has less feed ratios than newer SAG14's with only A-B-C ratios versus a SAG14's A-B-C-D . The cross slide and tailstock castings look identical to the SAG180.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SAG 180 View Post
    That Hercules has a roller bearing spindle rather than a spindle bush, I can tell by the collar behind the chuck. It has less feed ratios than newer SAG14's with only A-B-C ratios versus a SAG14's A-B-C-D . The cross slide and tailstock castings look identical to the SAG180.
    Sounds like it’s an earlier version of the 14.
    That would date it in the mid 70s I guess.

    I’m going to go look at it.
    I’ll report back.

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    They are pretty hard to date short of finding the original documents, there's almost no information and Graziano themselves built machines with a lot of variation/overlap in the design. My older SAG 180 has an identical appearance to the one you're looking at but has higher spindle speeds, a spindle bush and a 1/2" leadscrew pitch vs the 3/8" pitch of a SAG 14. I'd be guessing the one you're looking at is 1960's-70's as by 1980 the SAG210 was being made which replaced the SAG 14. I paid about USD $2450 for mine and it came with an original steel 12" 3 jaw, a 14" 4 jaw, a face plate, three quick change tool holders, two rear tool holders for the back of the cross slide


    I'll attach a copy of the factory letter which claims all SAG14's have a steel flat top cross slide. There was even a guy here not so long ago with a Spanish clone of one too.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails graziano-sag-14.jpg  

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    A picture of a builders plate...
    Never mind, that’s just the lubrication specs.
    f340a388-d951-47f7-887c-ecf57ec8ad7e.jpg

    Everything works.
    Runs smooth and quiet.
    The owner bought it 9 years ago for his retirement from the original owner, who supposedly bought it new in the early 80s.
    The way guards are in place on the rest of the bed, just not the last foot or so?????

    The owner is selling because of health.
    I just bought a nice little cast iron band saw from a guy with Parkinson’s....
    I feel a little ghoulish.

    It’s 9feet long, I’ll have to do some measurement and see if it will fit.
    I really don’t need 60”
    Last edited by Miguels244; 04-11-2018 at 10:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    A picture of a builders plate...
    f340a388-d951-47f7-887c-ecf57ec8ad7e.jpg
    That was a "Denver" CL listing. I've skipped parts of the thread.

    IS it local (enough) to you? Have you made the trek and had hands-on?

    Any impressions as to real-world usable condition?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    A picture of a builders plate...
    Never mind, that’s just the lubrication specs.
    f340a388-d951-47f7-887c-ecf57ec8ad7e.jpg

    Everything works.
    Runs smooth and quiet.
    The owner bought it 9 years ago for his retirement from the original owner, who supposedly bought it new in the early 80s.
    The way guards are in place on the rest of the bed, just not the last foot or so?????

    The owner is selling because of health.
    I just bought a nice little cast iron band saw from a guy with Parkinson’s....
    I feel a little ghoulish.

    It’s 9feet long, I’ll have to do some measurement and see if it will fit.
    I really don’t need 60”
    From your earlier photo's it's definitely an earlier style SAG14, there's no way it was new in the 1980's as by the 1970's they had ABCD on the threading chart, a circular plastic spindle speed selector, a tailstock with a flat top and a flat topped surface ground steel cross slide. It actually looks identical to the earlier SAG 180 lathe in every respect except maybe the leadscrew pitch. Maybe new in the early 1970's

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    Quote Originally Posted by SAG 180 View Post
    From your earlier photo's it's definitely an earlier style SAG14, there's no way it was new in the 1980's as by the 1970's they had ABCD on the threading chart, a circular plastic spindle speed selector, a tailstock with a flat top and a flat topped surface ground steel cross slide. It actually looks identical to the earlier SAG 180 lathe in every respect except maybe the leadscrew pitch.
    All that fits well with "what I read in the funny papers", online research-wise, which is all I have.

    Brass-tacks time:

    Whether from leading a low-stress life, or of benefit of prior renovations along the way, if it is a good runner, what better - or even what "other" - options are there, "mile high" area anyway?

    60" 'tween centres? 2" spindle bore? And "only" 9 feet overall?

    Long-headed Pacemaker or DS&G are less space-efficient. Cazeneuve HBX-360-BC is three feet shorter @ six feet o/a, but has ony 30" c-to-c, nominally, and that reduced to but 27" with the capstan TS.

    The shop may have to be "diagonalized" or something, yes.

    OTOH, that also means you can tackle work a 20", 30", or even 40" c-to-c work-envelope lathe could not even think about.

    Even so.. do you NEED it? Do you have work FOR it? Is the extra capacity used only ever-so rarely worth the space - and power - budget all-year? How about greater ration of funds tied-up in the scarcer and more costly nose-art than a smaller machine uses?

    Now for the fun part, Miguel. You know how well-trained and experienced you are at debating?

    This time, it will be with yourself!

    May the better man win!


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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    All that fits well with "what I read in the funny papers", online research-wise, which is all I have.

    Brass-tacks time:

    Whether from leading a low-stress life, or of benefit of prior renovations along the way, if it is a good runner, what better - or even what "other" - options are there, "mile high" area anyway?

    60" 'tween centres? 2" spindle bore? And "only" 9 feet overall?

    Long-headed Pacemaker or DS&G are less space-efficient. Cazeneuve HBX-360-BC is three feet shorter @ six feet o/a, but has ony 30" c-to-c, nominally, and that reduced to but 27" with the capstan TS.

    The shop may have to be "diagonalized" or something, yes.

    OTOH, that also means you can tackle work a 20", 30", or even 40" c-to-c work-envelope lathe could not even think about.

    Even so.. do you NEED it? Do you have work FOR it? Is the extra capacity used only ever-so rarely worth the space - and power - budget all-year? How about greater ration of funds tied-up in the scarcer and more costly nose-art than a smaller machine uses?

    Now for the fun part, Miguel. You know how well-trained and experienced you are at debating?

    This time, it will be with yourself!

    May the better man win!

    Oh, it’s an internal debate all right.
    Setting aside all other considerations, it’s a hell of a deal.
    5k for a half way well tooled ‘real lathe’.

    As for having work for it...
    I’m essentially a hobbiest at this point, but am hoping/planning on having a model/prototype shop for the next decade or two of my life.
    Of course I don’t NEED it.
    I can farm out most of the things I want to prototurn.

    Even at the 7k price point it’s hard to come up with a better deal.

    How much will I miss the higher speeds?
    How much will I miss the floor space?

    It’s either this or a corvette convertible for the midlife crisis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SAG 180 View Post
    From your earlier photo's it's definitely an earlier style SAG14, there's no way it was new in the 1980's as by the 1970's they had ABCD on the threading chart, a circular plastic spindle speed selector, a tailstock with a flat top and a flat topped surface ground steel cross slide. It actually looks identical to the earlier SAG 180 lathe in every respect except maybe the leadscrew pitch. Maybe new in the early 1970's
    Still makes it a couple decades newer than my mill.


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