Mori Seiki MS-850 versus Victor 1630 versus Bridgeport Romi versus ...

I'm looking for a smallish footprint and reliable, stout lathe to put in my garage.
Not looking to start a lathe flame/religion war :-)

Footprint max size I want is about 3'x8' with a little wiggle room. I have 230V single phase power, but will be getting a rotary phase converter.

Recommendations for stout lathes with 3 jaw, 4 jaw, 5C, DRO and/or TravADials, ..., 230V, that fit in my footprint range? I have some listed below that I looked at today, but not sure how good those prices are.


I went to a local machinery dealer and looked at some machines, some of which are quite stout and a bit bigger than ideal, but could work.


He has a Mori Seiki MS-850 in what seems decent condition. Spindle and gearbox sound good. I haven't put an indicator on the spindle yet, but I will on my next trip. It is wired for 460V, which isn't ideal, as I would prefer to avoid having to use a transformer if I can. Are they dual voltage capable? It has a 3 jaw, 4 jaw, faceplates, 5C collet closer, nice Heidenhain 2 axis 0.0002" DRO
He said it came out of a shop where they were machining graphite, so I'm wondering how that might [adversely] affect the machine, spindle, ways, electrics, ...
He's asking $6900 for it, which is more than I want to spend, but ...
Of all the machines I ran today, it had the best feel for shifting gears and in using it.


I also ran a Victor 1630, with a 5C collet closer, 3 jaw, 4 jaw, broken DRO. The spindle and gearbox sounded good on this as well. Gear shifting was pretty straightforward as well. He's asking $4000. How's that price?


He also has a Bridgeport Romi with a 3 jaw, 4 jaw and taper attachment. It was definitely less stout than the Mori and a bit deeper with the deep chip pan, but clean, good looking condition. It was probably mostly my lack of familiarity, but the gear shifting seemed awfully complicated to me...
It didn't have a 5C collet closer on it, which is a strike against it.
He's asking $4000 for it, but I don't like the idea of having to spring for a 5C collet closer.


I also ran a Harrison M350, which ran well, but has a mysterious shifting dial pair, which I couldn't figure out how to interpret what gear I was in.


There is a Lodge & Shipley that I didn't get a chance to run. Looked in decent shape, but I have no experience with them.

I also just came across a Cadillac that might be for sale, and I also saw a Acra/Gwangju Namseon.
Anybody have opinions of those versus a Mori Seiki?

What work do you want to do with your lathe? Turn round things, obviously, but narrowing it down would help the process considerably.

Ive got a 1997 cadillac 2260 and it rocks. Very rigid and accurate. My buddy has an MS 850 but I dont go using his machines when I visit his shop so cant compare.

I came across a nice looking Graziano SAG-12, but it isn’t under power, so I couldn’t hear the spindle. It also has the handle broken off of the carriage handwheel.
Everything feels tight and good, but I didn’t indicate it either.
It has an air actuated 5C collet closer on it, but I’m more partial to a lever closer for at my house.
The Grazianos are sexy machines, but I worry about having to fix or replace things, especially in the transmission.
The guy said to make him an offer, but I’m not sure how much to offer, especially since I haven’t run it and heard the spindle/gearbox running.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

rpseguin said:

I came across a nice looking Graziano SAG-12, but it isn’t under power, so I couldn’t hear the spindle. It also has the handle broken off of the carriage handwheel.
Everything feels tight and good, but I didn’t indicate it either.
It has an air actuated 5C collet closer on it, but I’m more partial to a lever closer for at my house.
The Grazianos are sexy machines, but I worry about having to fix or replace things, especially in the transmission.
The guy said to make him an offer, but I’m not sure how much to offer, especially since I haven’t run it and heard the spindle/gearbox running.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

Here’s the broken handle:



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

And I’ve also found a very clean, very low hours Victor 1640B.
The spindle sounds great, nice and quiet.
I would need to find a 5C collet closer for it anyone have one or correct measurements and/or part to order?
It also needs the carriage handwheel.


Calling Victor kind of left a bad taste in my mouth:
Me: “Can you send me a PDF of the parts list?”
Victor: “Oh, you have to order and pay for the parts list.”

Victor: “We can’t tell you the part number to order. And we also won’t sell you the 5 C collet closer, as it has to be factory installed.”
Me: “Ok, but the one on this lathe is broken.”
Victor: “That’s too bad.”

rpseguin said:

I would need to find a 5C collet closer for it anyone have one or correct measurements and/or part to order?
It also needs the carriage handwheel.

Calling Victor kind of left a bad taste in my mouth:
Me: “Can you send me a PDF of the parts list?”
Victor: “Oh, you have to order and pay for the parts list.”

Victor: “We can’t tell you the part number to order. And we also won’t sell you the 5 C collet closer, as it has to be factory installed.”
Me: “Ok, but the one on this lathe is broken.”
Victor: “That’s too bad.”

Click to expand...

WTF?

Even so.. I'd put 5C further down the decision-list. There are LOTS of solutions, some fast-operating, other less-so, some cheaper that others, yadda, yadda - but NONE of them rocket science to fit-up.

Or to repair.


"Condition", obviously. Otherwise, the spindle mount "system" would matter more to me.

Most of the Asian lathes, and "many" European ones as well, use an "A" family or DIN-equivalent short-taper that wants face-bolted.

A D1 family is friendlier to nose-art mounting & easier swaps. While not as fast to change as an "L" family (seriously rare, long-since), I'd call D1 a long-term plus well worth having. It can save you "a measure of" time, has superb repeatability, de-mount/re-mount, and can help insure access to a wider variety of inexpensive backplates and nose-art choices.

The one pictured? "Could be" a D1-5 or D1-6 showing? Check it out!

A busted handle is about as trivial a fix as can be.

2CW

rpseguin said:

It also has the handle broken off of the carriage handwheel.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

That's funny, a broken handle on the scale of things is a none issue, you can use a shoulder bolt with the correct thread in a pinch.

The real issue on a SAG12 is whether the electronic clutches work, those are the clutches that are controlled by the joystick on the right hand side of the carriage. If the location where it's at has 3-ph I'd insist on them wiring it up to hear it run, if they don't want to I would bet the clutches are not working. At that point it's worth $500

rpseguin said:

I also just came across a Cadillac that might be for sale, and I also saw a Acra/Gwangju Namseon.
Anybody have opinions of those versus a Mori Seiki?

Click to expand...

I have a 1640 Namseon ( mines branded Kerry) it’s a great lathe. I don’t have tons of hours on it, but it’s well made and had no wear. I went thru it when I bought it and everything that matters runs in oil and had Japanese bearings. Should go cheaper than a Mori. I really wish it had a clutch. They pop up on eBay and at dealers, but they want crazy money. I got mine cheap, but wouldn’t feel regret if it was $7k.
Typical no parts support issue, but all the bearings and seals are common, just don’t do anything stupid.
Oh and most are gap beds


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Suppose you don't use the area, but looks like a big chunk out of the ways under the front cover on the 12 if I'm seeing correctly....might be indicative of abuse - or a dropped chuck?

The Victor should be D1-6. Sounds like they may have changed policy, but I got a drawing from the US guys some years back for the headstock area of a 400x1000. Not sure of the vintages of Victors you've looked at, but if you're doing small collet work, one of the early ones here only goes 1500, the later one does 1800, current ones I believe are a bit faster again. They typically don't bring 4k here, but the distributor closing some years back when property prices started spiking probably cruelled the market a bit, plus training institutions started closing metalworking courses, which was the main selling area.

All the Moris I've seen here have been clapped-out and used hard in industry. Instead of position, position as in real estate, condition, condition! Odd, far more Mazaks of that 70s era sold here....don't seem to be many there in comparison.

thermite said:

WTF?

Even so.. I'd put 5C further down the decision-list. There are LOTS of solutions, some fast-operating, other less-so, some cheaper that others, yadda, yadda - but NONE of them rocket science to fit-up.

Or to repair.


"Condition", obviously. Otherwise, the spindle mount "system" would matter more to me.

Most of the Asian lathes, and "many" European ones as well, use an "A" family or DIN-equivalent short-taper that wants face-bolted.

A D1 family is friendlier to nose-art mounting & easier swaps. While not as fast to change as an "L" family (seriously rare, long-since), I'd call D1 a long-term plus well worth having. It can save you "a measure of" time, has superb repeatability, de-mount/re-mount, and can help insure access to a wider variety of inexpensive backplates and nose-art choices.

The one pictured? "Could be" a D1-5 or D1-6 showing? Check it out!

A busted handle is about as trivial a fix as can be.

2CW

Click to expand...

Yeah, I was kind of put off by their poor service.
I know I can get a 5C closer (the original drawtube is broken) from a couple of places, but I’m hoping to find a less expensive alternative.
It’s definitely a D1 mount. You can see the pins on the faceplate pic here.
The Victor 1640B is Chinese made instead of Taiwan. I would prefer Taiwan over China, but the lathe looks to be decent quality.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

triumph406 said:

That's funny, a broken handle on the scale of things is a none issue, you can use a shoulder bolt with the correct thread in a pinch.

The real issue on a SAG12 is whether the electronic clutches work, those are the clutches that are controlled by the joystick on the right hand side of the carriage. If the location where it's at has 3-ph I'd insist on them wiring it up to hear it run, if they don't want to I would bet the clutches are not working. At that point it's worth $500

Click to expand...

The handle doesn’t worry me at all (unless there was further related damage that isn’t obvious.

Yeah, the drivetrain, clutches and spindle are definitely my main concern. That sounds like a huge, expensive wild goose chase if there’s a problem there. I will ask them to hook it up so I can run it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

rpseguin said:

(the original drawtube is broken)

Click to expand...

If all else is there, that's about as easy a repair as can be for a 5C closer. There are sources for brand-new pre-threaded drawtube in several stock lengths.

BillE said:

Suppose you don't use the area, but looks like a big chunk out of the ways under the front cover on the 12 if I'm seeing correctly....might be indicative of abuse - or a dropped chuck?

The Victor should be D1-6. Sounds like they may have changed policy, but I got a drawing from the US guys some years back for the headstock area of a 400x1000. Not sure of the vintages of Victors you've looked at, but if you're doing small collet work, one of the early ones here only goes 1500, the later one does 1800, current ones I believe are a bit faster again. They typically don't bring 4k here, but the distributor closing some years back when property prices started spiking probably cruelled the market a bit, plus training institutions started closing metalworking courses, which was the main selling area.

All the Moris I've seen here have been clapped-out and used hard in industry. Instead of position, position as in real estate, condition, condition! Odd, far more Mazaks of that 70s era sold here....don't seem to be many there in comparison.

Click to expand...

Good eye on the Graziano way!!
I didn’t spot that until you pointed it out.
I have a Hardinge HC for smaller work, but I have to learn how to set up and use the threading unit.



The Victor is definitely a D1 mount.

I will bring a collet and a carbide endmill blank and a test indicator with me next time I go to look at the Mori and other machines.
I like the MS850 because it is sufficiently small that I can fit it.
There’s a Cadillac 22” on Craigslist, but I worry it’s gonna be too big.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

thermite said:

If all else is there, that's about as easy a repair as can be for a 5C closer. There are sources for brand-new pre-threaded drawtube in several stock lengths.

Click to expand...

I think it’s mostly there, but Im not positive.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have a Hwacheon which is a Mori copy. A very stout machine, kinda old school. Quick change gearboxes aren't open any more, etc. but it cuts great, is very accurate and is very stout! My friend has a Victor, Taiwan, and loves it! And he's beat it hard! I've also heard that Cadillac lathes are very good.

rpseguin said:

I think it’s mostly there, but Im not positive.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

D1-4 (and larger) have the thru-bore to utilize (at least..) 2J collets as well as 5C.

I've relegated 5C to secondary priority and hex, square, pot and step chuck in favour of Sjogren D1-3 and and also a Hardinge "loop" front-closer in 2J, as the 10EE spindle bores will NOT pass a drawtube larger than 5C.

2J collets cost more than 5C.. but....they also grip better and last longer.

thermite said:

D1-4 (and larger) have the thru-bore to utilize (at least..) 2J collets as well as 5C.

I've relegated 5C to secondary priority and hex, square, pot and step chuck in favour of Sjogren D1-3 and and also a Hardinge "loop" front-closer in 2J, as the 10EE spindle bores will NOT pass a drawtube larger than 5C.

2J collets cost more than 5C.. but....they also grip better and last longer.

Click to expand...

Good idea! I guess I was stuck in 5C mindset :-)

rpseguin said:

I think it’s mostly there, but Im not positive.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

The drawbar assembly might be mostly there, but looks mostly broken. It looks like the draw tube was fractured from the tail part that engages the lever.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk