Newly Acquired Cazeneuve HB 575.. Need Tool Post!! - Page 3
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjk View Post
    Keep in mind the gearbox also directly drives the oil pump
    Not a deal breaker. but a consideration in your planning.
    I would guess a nos gearbox/motor of $10,000 is way low
    Not to mention the shifting mechanism

    will be sending pm
    Agree on the new(ish) motive power costing.

    That said? AFAIK, Cazeneuve's current models - "teach in" CNC hybrids, nearly all - use a servo drive. I could be wrong - it could be a VFD rig.. someone else will KNOW, given they are still in regular production and use.

    If not, several others in the lathe bizness surely do power their spindles off of servos.

    Too soon to determine if that is a better option than a "straight" 3-P motor run off a VFD, but not too soon to explore it as an affordable DIY option, because...

    A massive CNC industry, long years already, has put LOTS of servo drives and their amplifier/controls into the used-but-good market.

    Nearly all of the Pilgrims that have explored that have just gone off and DONE it. Very few have bothered to post about their project.

    That doesn't mean it was bad idea. CNC makers are still doing it, brand-new, after all.

    More likely means they were smart enough to go make chips, grin all the way to the bank, and keep their mouth shut to avoid arguments.


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    The back gear H/V is within the spindle not within the motor/gearbox

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    Quote Originally Posted by mjk View Post
    The back gear H/V is within the spindle not within the motor/gearbox
    "Both", after a fashion,it appears. The manual will tell the story on that motor/gearmotor.

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    motor/gearbox & brake575-mtr1.jpg575-mtr2.jpg575-brake.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by mjk View Post
    motor/gearbox & brake575-mtr1.jpg575-mtr2.jpg575-brake.jpg
    Thanks.

    Compounding the decision is how well its options are integrated into what the REST of the machine expects and is documented and placarded to do.

    I would repair it, not replace it. It isn't all that hard to do that - just tedious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Just sent you an email.

    Maybe not so limited on power options.

    Let's dig deeper as to understanding the characteristics of the OEM motor - especially the reduction ratio off the gearbox.

    What do you have for local power? Utility 3-Phase? Or?

    Bill

    Hi Bill,

    Any info you can send my way would be great. My shop has local utility 3-Phase power.

    Cheers,

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    Quote Originally Posted by mjk View Post
    Keep in mind the gearbox also directly drives the oil pump
    Not a deal breaker. but a consideration in your planning.
    I would guess a nos gearbox/motor of $10,000 is way low
    Not to mention the shifting mechanism

    will be sending pm

    Yes I may have to adjust my $$ appraisal of the new motor cost.. It may be in the $20,000 range. Regarding the oil pump, it was my understanding the "Spindle Gear Case" drives the oil pump you are referring to. The gearbox I am referring to is the range box down at the front side of the motor. I was sure this range box was isolated, and is bathed in its own oil sump. Is this not the case? I may have mistakenly made an assumption.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mjk View Post
    motor/gearbox & brake575-mtr1.jpg575-mtr2.jpg575-brake.jpg
    MJK.. Thanks for the post.. This is exactly the unit that is at the heart of my problem. It took the brunt force of the fall and cracked like a champagne glass. It was noted above that the oil pump for the machine is driven off the gearbox, but I am not sure of its location as of yet. Can you confirm the oil pump is driven off of the upper main/spindle gearbox, and NOT off of this motor mounted range box?

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    Quote Originally Posted by crcarson26 View Post
    Hi Bill,

    Any info you can send my way would be great. My shop has local utility 3-Phase power.

    Cheers,
    Let's see what you see when you can share once you get that motor and gearbox out.

    Utility-mains 3-Phase give you options not all hands have.

    Milacron conveyed the manual when I bought the HBX-360-BC from him. You need the same for your larger 575. See the detail mjk posted.

    Also dig around in the many of Henri Rene Bruet's patents he registered in the US, and in English. Well-written. Superb drawings. Google will find those, the .pdf's are downloadable.

    Could was some hired expert TiG work, machining back to true, a shaft ordered from Cazeneuve spares support, and that motor and gear drive is functional again rather than even NEEDING to be replaced.

    The sheet-metal covers are easy enough. Any auto-body man, last hundred years, can see to that. Nor is it hard to fab new ones.

    Cazeneuve's fragile-anyway plastic handles were preceded in shiney-wood. IF.. I live long enough ..mine will be Nickel Aluminium Bronze, if only "because I can".


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    Here's a pic showing the oil pump
    It spins with the motor, changing direction in reverse
    YES IT CHANGES DIRECTION
    The 2 lines alternate between suction and pressure and the tank has a valve that works with balls that act as check vales. As the balls and ports wear, the pressure increases, that being my reason for adding a valve to the system to dump excess back to the sump tank. In colder weather I adjust the pressure to allow for the higher pressure developed, and adjust it if the oil temp increases enough to drop pressure. Inversely in the summer I raise the pressure to compensate for when it was set cold.
    When I first took the sump cover and piping completely apart it didn't make sense, and getting it around the pulley was a pain.
    It may have been a pm member that explained the operation of the valve to me and when I realized I had to take much of that flow direction valve appart to clean the sump, I modified the cover to allow easier maintenance
    The sump is cast into the base very close to the motor pulley.

    If I had to retrofit a motor w/o gearbox I would have a separately mounted self powered oil pump that was run off a set of contacts that powered the main motor either in fwd or rev.
    The gearbox attached to the motor has no bearing on feed
    The feed drive/threading drive are connected to the spindle thru gearing from the top housing.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 575-pump.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by mjk View Post
    Here's a pic showing the oil pump
    It spins with the motor, changing direction in reverse
    YES IT CHANGES DIRECTION
    The 2 lines alternate between suction and pressure and the tank has a valve that works with balls that act as check vales. As the balls and ports wear, the pressure increases, that being my reason for adding a valve to the system to dump excess back to the sump tank. In colder weather I adjust the pressure to allow for the higher pressure developed, and adjust it if the oil temp increases enough to drop pressure. Inversely in the summer I raise the pressure to compensate for when it was set cold.
    When I first took the sump cover and piping completely apart it didn't make sense, and getting it around the pulley was a pain.
    It may have been a pm member that explained the operation of the valve to me and when I realized I had to take much of that flow direction valve appart to clean the sump, I modified the cover to allow easier maintenance
    The sump is cast into the base very close to the motor pulley.

    If I had to retrofit a motor w/o gearbox I would have a separately mounted self powered oil pump that was run off a set of contacts that powered the main motor either in fwd or rev.
    The gearbox attached to the motor has no bearing on feed
    The feed drive/threading drive are connected to the spindle thru gearing from the top housing.
    Seconding the independent juice pump, regardless.

    The OEM ones - noisy as Hell, BTW - made no-fail (to switch-on) economic sense to a firm building what has (so far) been over forty-thousand "HB" family lathes.

    We are not they.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mjk View Post
    Here's a pic showing the oil pump
    It spins with the motor, changing direction in reverse
    YES IT CHANGES DIRECTION
    The 2 lines alternate between suction and pressure and the tank has a valve that works with balls that act as check vales. As the balls and ports wear, the pressure increases, that being my reason for adding a valve to the system to dump excess back to the sump tank. In colder weather I adjust the pressure to allow for the higher pressure developed, and adjust it if the oil temp increases enough to drop pressure. Inversely in the summer I raise the pressure to compensate for when it was set cold.
    When I first took the sump cover and piping completely apart it didn't make sense, and getting it around the pulley was a pain.
    It may have been a pm member that explained the operation of the valve to me and when I realized I had to take much of that flow direction valve appart to clean the sump, I modified the cover to allow easier maintenance
    The sump is cast into the base very close to the motor pulley.

    If I had to retrofit a motor w/o gearbox I would have a separately mounted self powered oil pump that was run off a set of contacts that powered the main motor either in fwd or rev.
    The gearbox attached to the motor has no bearing on feed
    The feed drive/threading drive are connected to the spindle thru gearing from the top housing.

    Excellent thank you.. yes I saw that oil sump down below the pulley, but I wasn’t sure exactly what is was at the time.. and yes I think a good quality dedicated oil pump that turns on when the main motor turns on would be great.. btw I’m finding 15 HP Baldor 3PH motors unused on eBay for less than $500?? Am I missing something? I was thinking this size of motor would be much more expensive.. I’m also finding that 12 HP is not that common.. 15 HP is looking like the size I would go with keeping cost in mind.. Makes some sense having a little more power under the hood given the fact of torque reduction at low rpm with the VFD systems..

    One other topic that came up earlier today while talking to guys at the shop was, what about the foot brake? If I remember correctly the foot brake clamps around a hub on that range box I’m deleting. So, I would need to fab up a new brake. I suppose I could machine a hub on the lathe at work that installs inboard of the pulley that allows an automotive rotor and caliper to be mounted.. A simple manual master cylinder mounted down at the foot brake pedal would actuate the caliper. Just an idea..

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    Here's the conundrum of why a gearbox is used.
    As designed with gearbox
    At max spindle speed your motor is developing (for discussion 12hp ) at 2000 rpm at a given torque
    Going thru the motor/gearbox with the "tramsmision shifted into its lowest gear, you have an output of 25 or 50 rpm depending on backgear selection at the spindle.
    That's a huge increase in torque developed thru the transmission without changing the motor horsepower or speed.

    The original "transmission" is a 9 speed, with the back gears you get 18 total

    Obtaining the lower rpm at a high torque at the motor end is your "problem" to be solved.
    And yes 12hp is a bastard


    A disk brake with a caliper would be a good choice.

    And for the record, an Aloris wedge "C" size is stout enough for this lathe.
    I parted a piece of 10" sch40 pipe the other day without a hint of tool deflection(at 25rpm)
    Last edited by mjk; 10-24-2019 at 11:39 PM. Reason: 9 vs 6 sped transmission

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    Quote Originally Posted by crcarson26 View Post
    Excellent thank you.. yes I saw that oil sump down below the pulley, but I wasn’t sure exactly what is was at the time.. and yes I think a good quality dedicated oil pump that turns on when the main motor turns on would be great..
    Better yet, given all French males must be DEEF if not from fighting with their feet, getting immersed clear to theirears in the "other thing" .. one can find very QUIET juice pumps.

    btw I’m finding 15 HP Baldor 3PH motors unused on eBay for less than $500?? Am I missing something?
    That they are perhaps made in Mexico, and rather carelessly so, perhaps?

    3-Phase = Marathon or some other make PLUS make excuses

    Dinosaur Current = Reliance "RPM" ELSE go pound sand.


    I was thinking this size of motor would be much more expensive.. I’m also finding that 12 HP is not that common.. 15 HP is looking like the size I would go with keeping cost in mind.. Makes some sense having a little more power under the hood given the fact of torque reduction at low rpm with the VFD systems..
    I have no "figures" for the disadvantage at low RPM VFD vs straight mains 50/60 Hz, BUT... a DC to VFD conversion wants a minimum 50% boost in AC nameplate HP to not fall on its nose, low end.

    OTOH, VFD shines at BOOSTED RPM, Regulates better than DC in "Field Weakened" range.

    In general, the "price" one pays for electrically operating to a wide range, RPM-wise is need of a much as double the nameplate power as not so doing.

    Not mysterious. A "nameplate" is, after all, but a "snapshot", specified Max HP load @ specified RPM off specified current @ Voltage.

    The motor itself is not perfectly linear, so... move-off ANY of those figures, the other ones change as well, we expected. That it can be worse that expected? Well.. the nameplate WAS indicative of that motor's "sweet spot", not its average.


    One other topic that came up earlier today while talking to guys at the shop was, what about the foot brake? If I remember correctly the foot brake clamps around a hub on that range box I’m deleting. So, I would need to fab up a new brake. I suppose I could machine a hub on the lathe at work that installs inboard of the pulley that allows an automotive rotor and caliper to be mounted.. A simple manual master cylinder mounted down at the foot brake pedal would actuate the caliper. Just an idea..
    I mentioned parts-bin off ATV/RV Ag and similar service buggys because automotive or even motorcycle brake components are far larger than a lathe this size needs. BICYCLE or motor-scooter parts could also do?

    A HS mate did a science project that showed the ignorant drum brakes off about a 100 BHP motation motor '54 Plymouth were good for dissipating 400 BHP as to converting kinetic energy to heat. "Once in a row", anyway!

    The mechanical linkage on the HBX-360 foot-bar also lifts a spring-loaded toggle switch to interrupt power to the actuating coil of the motor's contactor, either of FWD or REV. Can't fight City hall, nor 7 to 12 motor-HP at the same time as ignorant inertia of powertrain + workholding + workpiece.

    Not to forget, BTW, that size for size a DRUM brake has more stopping power than a "spot" type disk brake. It just has a harder time doing it again, "right away" for more than a few goes.

    2CW
    Last edited by thermite; 10-25-2019 at 01:10 AM.

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    "The mechanical linkage on the HBX-360 foot-bar also lifts a spring-loaded toggle switch to interrupt power to the actuating coil of the motor's contactor"

    575 does the same

    One difference of starting again is that the 575 starts as STAR>DELTA for a "slow" start, something you want if you have the 22" 4 jaw mounted with a big chunk of a casting

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    Just to narrow down the actual braking needs for a medium sized lathe, the energy dissipation (converting kinetic energy to heat) in even a small car is an order of magnitude greater.
    1600 lb car going 80 mph, Vs lathe drivetrain, chuck, workpiece, 200-500 lbs or less spinning at 800 rpm?

    A shifter go-cart or light motorcycle unit will have the stopping power needed for the job. Anything greater, and it’s just too much, shock loading and gear or shaft key damage could result on even a robust lathe headstock with a strong automotive brake.

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    Yeah that’s a good call on the brake size.. A motorcycle disc brake would probably work great.. I'm thinking something along these lines..





    As far as low RPM torque utilizing a VFD, I am considering the possibility of over-sizing the motor even more to 20 HP to help compensate for the loss of low RPM torque due to no gear reduction at the motor.. Any thoughts on the pros/cons to this power level?

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    Quote Originally Posted by crcarson26 View Post
    Yeah that’s a good call on the brake size.. A motorcycle disc brake would probably work great.. I'm thinking something along these lines..





    As far as low RPM torque utilizing a VFD, I am considering the possibility of over-sizing the motor even more to 20 HP to help compensate for the loss of low RPM torque due to no gear reduction at the motor.. Any thoughts on the pros/cons to this power level?
    Page One.

    A motor SCOOTER brake is actually overkill, let alone the uber-binders off a full-house road-rocket. Not as if it was driving mountain roads. Only has to assist with a stop every now and then.

    Might have to fab a disk or adapt a drum, but for the binder, look for something common, large volume, parts-bin, for components.

    Golf cart, ride-on lawnmower, jobsite krew ATV, UTV, airport handicapped passenger & VIP carts, etc. Airheart and others as new for OEM design-in work.

    AIRHEART Brakes Web Site

    Mechanical linkage can include easily routed sheathed push-pull cables as well as rods and bellcranks. Stainless steel cable exists.

    Page Two:

    Pardon my "French", but.. 20 HP where 12 HP lived? 15 HP max, and even then, shape and space may be a challenge. It's a geared head final drive for a lathe. Not a '39 Packard three-speed. Your plan does not include periodically having new gears fabricated as you tear them up from over-stress, does it?

    I'd still repair the OEM rig. You can ALWAYS upgrade/modify LATER.

    Meaning you can MEANTIME make chips to bootstrap your own repairs off any SMALLER motor cheaply found and rapidly fitted. Spare coin is going to be needed for lots of stuff, yah? Good lathe, even when run partly crippled, so that can work rather well even off a 5 HP single-phase temporary-robbed off some other machine. Doesn't REALLY even have to live inside. It can sit on a temporary "back porch" and still run belts, need simpler mounting (wood or shiney-wood, even) and be gotten out of the way and put back as you do other repairs.

    The OEM motor & gearbox, once repaired, only has to be pretty on the INSIDE where the whirly-aroundy bits live and must be in proper position and alignment. There is exactly ONE set of stator coils and exactly ONE armature, a bearing at each end.

    A forty-leben cylinder submarine Diesel with a crankshaft cracked amidships it is not.

    Great gobs of braze, TiG bead - or legendary-magical "Araldite" [1] are quite OK on the OUTSIDE.



    [1] British thing, Araldite is. Formula One race cars have had bustid transmission cases Araldited back together starting easily fifty years go, gone onto a track, been run hard enough to humble the very hammers of Hell itself to finish and win. French don't OWN anything Araldite can't hold together except a coalition Government or a balanced budget.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Page One.

    A motor SCOOTER brake is actually overkill, let alone the uber-binders off a full-house road-rocket. Not as if it was driving mountain roads. Only has to assist with a stop every now and then.

    Might have to fab a disk or adapt a drum, but for the binder, look for something common, large volume, parts-bin, for components.

    Golf cart, ride-on lawnmower, jobsite krew ATV, UTV, airport handicapped passenger & VIP carts, etc. Airheart and others as new for OEM design-in work.

    AIRHEART Brakes Web Site

    Mechanical linkage can include easily routed sheathed push-pull cables as well as rods and bellcranks. Stainless steel cable exists.

    Page Two:

    Pardon my "French", but.. 20 HP where 12 HP lived? 15 HP max, and even then, shape and space may be a challenge. It's a geared head final drive for a lathe. Not a '39 Packard three-speed. Your plan does not include periodically having new gears fabricated as you tear them up from over-stress, does it?

    I'd still repair the OEM rig. You can ALWAYS upgrade/modify LATER.

    Meaning you can MEANTIME make chips to bootstrap your own repairs off any SMALLER motor cheaply found and rapidly fitted. Spare coin is going to be needed for lots of stuff, yah? Good lathe, even when run partly crippled, so that can work rather well even off a 5 HP single-phase temporary-robbed off some other machine. Doesn't REALLY even have to live inside. It can sit on a temporary "back porch" and still run belts, need simpler mounting (wood or shiney-wood, even) and be gotten out of the way and put back as you do other repairs.

    The OEM motor & gearbox, once repaired, only has to be pretty on the INSIDE where the whirly-aroundy bits live and must be in proper position and alignment. There is exactly ONE set of stator coils and exactly ONE armature, a bearing at each end.

    A forty-leben cylinder submarine Diesel with a crankshaft cracked amidships it is not.

    Great gobs of braze, TiG bead - or legendary-magical "Araldite" [1] are quite OK on the OUTSIDE.



    [1] British thing, Araldite is. Formula One race cars have had bustid transmission cases Araldited back together starting easily fifty years go, gone onto a track, been run hard enough to humble the very hammers of Hell itself to finish and win. French don't OWN anything Araldite can't hold together except a coalition Government or a balanced budget.

    Okay I agree with the idea that I don't need brakes for a 1 ton truck. However, a 15-20 HP motor is not that small as far as physical dimensions. In looking up some initial measurements of the motor diameter, and the diameter of a common front street motorcycle rotor, they actually would work quite nicely together. Getting a rotor that is too small of a diameter, mounting the caliper becomes a problem as it starts interfering with the cast casing.


    I have experience in this area designing the pinion brakes for my buggy build.






    And I can tell you, diameter is on your side. Obviously this is all still theoretical until I tear into my machine and see what can be done.

    Okay Page 2:

    Respectfully, the amount of torque produced at the pulley gets multiplied by the ratio of reduction. So yes, I don't see how a 15-20 HP motor would be putting significantly more torque through the upper gear box than it already is exposed to. Plus, that number drops way off as RPM decreases. Combine that with no gear reduction, I 'm not seeing how it's that wild of an idea.

    And yes I agree with you, I will closely inspect the factory unit and see if there is anyway I can tig/braze/mig the castings together after properly inspecting the shaft for straightness etc. On a side note, it doesn't look like the range-box on the motor is harmed, just the casting of the motor itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crcarson26 View Post
    Respectfully, the amount of torque produced at the pulley gets multiplied by the ratio of reduction. So yes, I don't see how a 15-20 HP motor would be putting significantly more torque through the upper gear box than it already is exposed to. Plus, that number drops way off as RPM decreases.
    Might want to run the actual maths on that vs the OEM motor?

    HP = Torque x RPM ÷ 5252

    Gear or similar losses aside, it's the same equation, solvable for choices of variable or combination, any motive force, mechanical ratios, electric motor range, or the combination thereof.



    .. inspect the factory unit and see if there is anyway I can tig/braze/mig the castings together after properly inspecting the shaft for straightness etc. On a side note, it doesn't look like the range-box on the motor is harmed, just the casting of the motor itself.
    The mounting feet can be as ugly as sin and be matched-up to, so long as the rotor is centered with no interference and aligned with the gearbox properly. Or made to be so. One could even belly-band it!

    Mining machines, early 1960's we were building-up 100 HP DC motor end-bells with powdered-Iron stick-weld (400 A Linde DC) and re-cutting metal-to-metal rim-seal and bearing mount practically every shift. Gearboxes and motor housing and feet much the same. Armature shaft with corn-cob weld where worn, or now and then making a new one from scratch as well. Got the job done.

    Welding options are downright magically better these days than back then, so IF you have to "move" the bearing at one end or the other, it is do-able, and the "host" 575 can swing it - hence the "temporary motor" suggestion.

    I really do suggest you defer ALL significant upgrades/modifications for at least a little while.

    Too much to do as to assessing damage and effecting repairs.

    First comes functional, then comes improved.

    Lybarger's Corollary to Sod's Law as it is, there may yet be a surprise or three coming up.


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