Newly Acquired Cazeneuve HB 575.. Need Tool Post!! - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    Carson
    documentation come thru?
    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by crcarson26 View Post
    Yeah that’s a good call on the brake size.. A motorcycle disc brake would probably work great..
    As far as low RPM torque utilizing a VFD, I am considering the possibility of over-sizing the motor even more to 20 HP to help compensate for the loss of low RPM torque due to no gear reduction at the motor.. Any thoughts on the pros/cons to this power level?
    You are getting way ahead of yourself, and overthinking AND mentally overbuilding in advance, yet you havnt assessed the damage to determine if the thing is worth saving yet, unless you have done a carefully survey of the bed.

    Also, as is common you are mistakenly thinking a VFD is a viable substitute for reduction gearing.

    On brake size, whatever experience you have with vehicular brakes doesn’t apply here. reference the brakes on other lathes. Swept area, friction coefficient, and applied pressure. Please. This has been done the way it has for a reason. Applying even a mid level motorcycle unit is overkill, let alone a super bike grade one. Too powerful a stop can have fatal consequences. Imagine a 600 lb asymmetric casting, which isn’t unreasonable on a lathe of this size, and something starts going wrong. Operator reacts by executing a “panic stop” mashing on the brake, wether needed or wise, as an instinctive reaction.workpiece could easily rip free given it’s momentum and if you are lucky, just destroy the chuck and some internal parts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mjk View Post
    Carson
    documentation come thru?
    Mike
    Hey Mike, yes the documentation came through. Thanks again!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by cyanidekid View Post
    You are getting way ahead of yourself, and overthinking AND mentally overbuilding in advance, yet you havnt assessed the damage to determine if the thing is worth saving yet, unless you have done a carefully survey of the bed.

    Also, as is common you are mistakenly thinking a VFD is a viable substitute for reduction gearing.

    On brake size, whatever experience you have with vehicular brakes doesn’t apply here. reference the brakes on other lathes. Swept area, friction coefficient, and applied pressure. Please. This has been done the way it has for a reason. Applying even a mid level motorcycle unit is overkill, let alone a super bike grade one. Too powerful a stop can have fatal consequences. Imagine a 600 lb asymmetric casting, which isn’t unreasonable on a lathe of this size, and something starts going wrong. Operator reacts by executing a “panic stop” mashing on the brake, wether needed or wise, as an instinctive reaction.workpiece could easily rip free given it’s momentum and if you are lucky, just destroy the chuck and some internal parts.
    Workpiece of that mass, serious inertia? One tries a panic stop, can also topple the lathe even if it does NOT lose its grip.

    And/or, force applied from "motor end" of the drivetrain? More likely, yet to strip a gear or two and stopeth it NOT at all!

    Brakes are best placed closest to the load, the fewer the intervening components to stress - perhaps fail - the better.

    See "inboard brakes", racing cars, even Grand Touring.

    "Seemed like a good idea at the time" w/r lower unsprung mass, and yet - brought slavery to challenging cooling, fragile half-shafts and universal joints - thus finding them on cars that had rather worse luck than not. Meaning one might have to go back a looong way to even find examples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cyanidekid View Post
    You are getting way ahead of yourself, and overthinking AND mentally overbuilding in advance, yet you havnt assessed the damage to determine if the thing is worth saving yet, unless you have done a carefully survey of the bed.

    Also, as is common you are mistakenly thinking a VFD is a viable substitute for reduction gearing.

    On brake size, whatever experience you have with vehicular brakes doesn’t apply here. reference the brakes on other lathes. Swept area, friction coefficient, and applied pressure. Please. This has been done the way it has for a reason. Applying even a mid level motorcycle unit is overkill, let alone a super bike grade one. Too powerful a stop can have fatal consequences. Imagine a 600 lb asymmetric casting, which isn’t unreasonable on a lathe of this size, and something starts going wrong. Operator reacts by executing a “panic stop” mashing on the brake, wether needed or wise, as an instinctive reaction.workpiece could easily rip free given it’s momentum and if you are lucky, just destroy the chuck and some internal parts.

    All are great points and are much appreciated..

    Of course I'm overthinking it.. Where's the fun in underthinking the problem? And yes, I have much to do as far as assessing the damage on the bed, if any. And yes, I understand a VFD is not a substitute for gear reduction. I am assessing my options given this tragedy, and a VFD is just an idea at this point. Hence the discussion of larger motor size for compensation.

    In addition, yes I am well aware of the effect of braking capacity. Having too large/powerful of a braking system can result in a brake that behaves more in a "On-Off" fashion than anything else. And no, this is obviously not usable, nor safe. This is something that can be easily modified through the use of progressive linkage, foot-brake lever ratio, proportioning valves, manual lever-cam-type calipers, and many others.

    Please don't assume by the photo I posted that I am going to install and use the full capacity of a 200 MPH sport bike brake. It was intended simply as a representation of rotor size based on the diameter of the motor.

    On the contrary, all knowledge of friction-type braking systems apply to this discussion. Whether the brake is for my buggy, a go-kart, or a belt sander, the same principles apply. As you stated, Swept area (its actually called pad-contact-area), friction coefficient, and applied pressure are all mandatory variables to consider.

    Another aspect I didn't mention earlier is, if I go the VFD route I'll be able to utilize the DC braking effect down at the motor that will further decrease the force on a disc brake when used.

    Another route I was pondering is mounting the disc brake at the back of the spindle to eliminate the force applied through the geared-head.

    I completely agree with you regarding the safety of the knee-jerk reaction to stomp on the brake in an emergency, and the need to eliminate the danger of consequences if/when this occurs.

    As I stated, all are great topics that must be addressed prior to running the machine.

    Cheers,

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    Quote Originally Posted by crcarson26 View Post
    Another aspect I didn't mention earlier is, if I go the VFD route I'll be able to utilize the DC braking effect down at the motor that will further decrease the force on a disc brake when used.
    On the spindle is indeed where it works best. See Cazeneuve's own HBX-360.

    As to VFD and DC braking? "Didn't mention" because it is near-as-dammit functionally NON-EXISTENT.

    Here's the rub:

    DC Drives can be cheaply and easily made "Four Quadrant" or "regenerative", because MOST sit directly astride the line and just "switch" what they are offered, sort of "duty cycle" wise. "Extra" pass-elements, modest control logic, and they can hand power back TO the grid, unimpeded. Braking resistors are nearly unheard of for 4Q drives.

    VFD have a barrier. Well-covered, do your own due diligence, but "reversible" they are seldom., so only what either of their OWN caps, OR a "local DC bus" off an in-plant grid can absorb isn't much use. Even providing for use of braking resistors is a PITA, if possible at all.

    Whatever else it is, or is not, an independent "mechanical" brake is at least power-source agnostic. Read "simple"

    That happens to be a "very good thing", ever one has to brake off the back of an ignorant power outage - all the magic of electronics gone dead and dark.

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    This is pretty cool.. Similar to what I described above except he mounted his disc directly to the chuck.. Works pretty damn Good!!



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    Quote Originally Posted by crcarson26 View Post
    This is pretty cool.. Similar to what I described above except he mounted his disc directly to the chuck.. Works pretty damn Good!!


    "Cool" does save several data Bytes over "barking mad", or "borderline insane", if you are using it as an abbreviation, yes.

    That don't make it either of "elegant", nor "righteous", though.

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    I would think maintaining the brake prior to power transmission to the spindle would allow some shock adsorption not available by mounting to the spindle directly. The multiple (6?)belts are good for that.
    Just think about how "crunchy" a gear drive drill press is when they jam or snap a tool. Not to mention the 575 has a shaft within a shaft spindle for the backgear that would make attachment at left side unnecessarily complicated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mjk View Post
    I would think maintaining the brake prior to power transmission to the spindle would allow some shock adsorption not available by mounting to the spindle directly. The multiple (6?)belts are good for that.
    Just think about how "crunchy" a gear drive drill press is when they jam or snap a tool. Not to mention the 575 has a shaft within a shaft spindle for the backgear that would make attachment at left side unnecessarily complicated.

    Excellent Point!! And yes, I would think the belts would start slipping or moaning before gears start breaking if the brake was down at the motor. I'm going to keep marinating on this idea..

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    Quote Originally Posted by mjk View Post
    I would think maintaining the brake prior to power transmission to the spindle would allow some shock adsorption not available by mounting to the spindle directly. The multiple (6?)belts are good for that.
    Just think about how "crunchy" a gear drive drill press is when they jam or snap a tool. Not to mention the 575 has a shaft within a shaft spindle for the backgear that would make attachment at left side unnecessarily complicated.
    It takes right about half the belts you see @ 5 HP each, roughly - to transfer ALL of the power to-hand, given their sheaves are not undersized. The overkill is for smoothest running, oil-mist resistance, and seriously long, maintenance-free life.

    "Slip" that full gang will not! Stall the motor or strip the gears FIRST. Try it and weep.

    Cazeneuve used a sane braking capability. Not as if they had no prior experience, R&D, nor shortage of maths.

    Devious French MAY even have cheated and had a hidden German-style "lay and display" toilet for verification and precise measurement of the "byproduct" of overly rapid stops:

    https://www.german-way.com/german-toilets/



    Over-size the braking power at the peril of pants, parts-budget, or BOTH!

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    " "Slip" that full gang will not! " I agree, and adjusted without extreme tension will allow for long belt life.
    Mine arrived with 1 belt missing,another flapping and the remaining in sad shape, and I dreaded sourcing new ones as "matched sets" usually imply $$$$.
    I was surprised that a matched set was delivered for less than $100.00
    One of the reasons for me modifying the sump cover was that it was nearly impossible to service without dragging across the belts and covering them with residue.

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    Well there I was just catching up on recent posts and really enjoying this one about your Cazeneuve. I have had my HB575 for 20 years now and it was offered to me for £400, but didn't have a chuck as it had only been used as a copy lathe for a piston manufacturer. This meant it had only had light work and no wear. I snapped the sellers hand off. I was on a motorcycling holiday in 2001, passing through Albert, France, went for a walk and happened to pass the Cazeneuve factory as I headed into town for a beer. What a nice surprise. A quick introduction and I was given a factory tour and a manual in English (I can send a copy if you need it). These lathes are very good Toolroom quality machines, though, as others have said, "different". They leak oil from the spindle nose and I am sure they have no seal there, instead relying on a "labrynth" set up. There is always too much oil up there, a good indication is the pressure gauge well up into the red zone. I too have made a tee piece on the oil feed to allow excess to go directly back to the sump rather than up to the headstock where it cannot drain back to the sump quickly enough. The taper for the chuck is Cazeneuves own, unless you have a camlock nosepiece and there are several other unusual design quirks. The motor is indeed a 12 hp or 9kw and has a 9 speed gearbox on the end of it, with an integral oil pump which works in forward and reverse. There is a high/low selector on the headstock which increases/decreases the selected speed by x8, so 25/200 rpm etc. There is a drum brake set up on the opposite end of the motor, but I think this is to slow the motor when reversing when screwcutting at lower spindle RPM rather than trying to stop it dead from 2000 RPM within half a second. From memory, the drum is about 10" diameter x 2" wide.
    I was astounded to see the condition of your lathe when it was delivered and think it has been drooped from a great height to cause such serious damage. Probably out of a passing space shuttle, it is so bad. Can you arrange for the courier to befall same fate? I do hope you get this fine machine back in full working order as they are a delight to use, with good cutting capacity and very accurate. On a lighter note, Thermite makes reference to skidmarks on German toilets with their "inspection plateau". Here in the UK we refer to such skidmarks as something different. Imagine a man of a certain age sitting on the edge of the marital bed, normally when his darling wife has just changed it for beautifully crisp, clean, white sheets and he is in a state of undress. (The wife is normally in another room, or county, at this stage in their relationship). It can happen in an instant and he looks in horror to see he has left a "ginger wheelspin" on the afore mentioned crisp white sheet. Ohh dear, ohh dear. Pleaase don't come in now my darling!

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    Quote Originally Posted by macchi7 View Post
    (The wife is normally in another room, or county, at this stage in their relationship). It can happen in an instant and he looks in horror to see he has left a "ginger wheelspin" on the afore mentioned crisp white sheet. Ohh dear, ohh dear. Pleaase don't come in now my darling!
    ROFL! Life-long, I have "made my bones" listening raptly to older (usually, but not always..) "Mentors" for fun, future-proofing, and even profit.

    This reminds me of a retired US Navy Chief - veteran of the US-Gunboats-up-Chinese-rivers era... before the Japanese invasion. The late Harold Eaton, at Northrop-Page:

    "You won't know if your wife REALLY loves you until you spend a month with both broken elbows in a cast at the same time!"

    Feeding you is the easy part, of course.

    Compared to that, repairs to this sadly abused Cazeneuve are EMINENTLY tolerable!


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    Quote Originally Posted by macchi7 View Post
    Well there I was just catching up on recent posts and really enjoying this one about your Cazeneuve. I have had my HB575 for 20 years now and it was offered to me for £400, but didn't have a chuck as it had only been used as a copy lathe for a piston manufacturer. This meant it had only had light work and no wear. I snapped the sellers hand off. I was on a motorcycling holiday in 2001, passing through Albert, France, went for a walk and happened to pass the Cazeneuve factory as I headed into town for a beer. What a nice surprise. A quick introduction and I was given a factory tour and a manual in English (I can send a copy if you need it). These lathes are very good Toolroom quality machines, though, as others have said, "different". They leak oil from the spindle nose and I am sure they have no seal there, instead relying on a "labrynth" set up. There is always too much oil up there, a good indication is the pressure gauge well up into the red zone. I too have made a tee piece on the oil feed to allow excess to go directly back to the sump rather than up to the headstock where it cannot drain back to the sump quickly enough. The taper for the chuck is Cazeneuves own, unless you have a camlock nosepiece and there are several other unusual design quirks. The motor is indeed a 12 hp or 9kw and has a 9 speed gearbox on the end of it, with an integral oil pump which works in forward and reverse. There is a high/low selector on the headstock which increases/decreases the selected speed by x8, so 25/200 rpm etc. There is a drum brake set up on the opposite end of the motor, but I think this is to slow the motor when reversing when screwcutting at lower spindle RPM rather than trying to stop it dead from 2000 RPM within half a second. From memory, the drum is about 10" diameter x 2" wide.
    I was astounded to see the condition of your lathe when it was delivered and think it has been drooped from a great height to cause such serious damage. Probably out of a passing space shuttle, it is so bad. Can you arrange for the courier to befall same fate? I do hope you get this fine machine back in full working order as they are a delight to use, with good cutting capacity and very accurate. On a lighter note, Thermite makes reference to skidmarks on German toilets with their "inspection plateau". Here in the UK we refer to such skidmarks as something different. Imagine a man of a certain age sitting on the edge of the marital bed, normally when his darling wife has just changed it for beautifully crisp, clean, white sheets and he is in a state of undress. (The wife is normally in another room, or county, at this stage in their relationship). It can happen in an instant and he looks in horror to see he has left a "ginger wheelspin" on the afore mentioned crisp white sheet. Ohh dear, ohh dear. Pleaase don't come in now my darling!

    Thank for the comments.. Yes my plan is to do everything possible to get this machine in proper working order. Would you mind sending me a PM with your contact info? I'd like to keep in contact with those familiar with these machines to help aid in the repair process.


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