star wheel tailstock, has anyone made one?
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  1. #1
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    Default star wheel tailstock, has anyone made one?

    the star wheel tailstock on Schaublin lathes is THE hot setup if you listen to anyone who has one, it seems they should be more common, no?

    given that they are not frekin' rocket science, why are they so rare? also, why not make one for otherwise decent and capable lathes? seems not so hard, anyone done that? take a good DP quill..

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    Got a Burgmaster dual head drill press and a little Atlas that are like that. I do agree with you, they are pretty nice and you don't see it really that often.

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    It would be easy enough to do, I think McMaster has machinable star bar hubs and such.

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    If you're talking about the *real* Schaublin starwheel tailstock, it features a twin stage reduction mechanism using some kind of planetary gear, that allows either a 1/1 or 1/50 ratio.

    Not so simple to duplicate and not the most reliable design to begin with...

    The simple drilling tailstock is closer to the DP quill concept, but this is usually not what Schaublin afficionados refer to when they talk about the starwheel tailstock.
    Pretty sure Milacron will chime and correct me if I'm wrong !

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    Quote Originally Posted by TNB View Post
    If you're talking about the *real* Schaublin starwheel tailstock, it features a twin stage reduction mechanism using some kind of planetary gear, that allows either a 1/1 or 1/50 ratio.

    Not so simple to duplicate and not the most reliable design to begin with...

    The simple drilling tailstock is closer to the DP quill concept, but this is usually not what Schaublin afficionados refer to when they talk about the starwheel tailstock.
    Pretty sure Milacron will chime and correct me if I'm wrong !
    Mebbe not. Dunno if "wrong" applies, but he has already posted his comparison of the merits and demerits of the Schaublin starwheel TS and a Cazeneuve HBX-360-BC "special tailstock" as he had both under-roof at the time.

    I have since bought the HBX, and last time we spoke he had also sold a very nice Schaublin which may have been the one with the starwheel TS.

    If a person is going to MAKE one, there is no pressing reason to make it identical to factory. Better to optimize for what one needs.

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    Somewhere out in net-land is a photo essay on a Colchester Chipmaster tailstock with a star wheel makeover. I was not able to find it in a quick google image search just now.

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    rklopp, you were nice enough to post a pic of the Chipmaster tailstock re-do in Sept 2011, but link was lost with the photo storage site fiasco. I've also been searching for this info as would like to do the same to one of my lathes and Google-fu hasn't helped. If anyone finds the pics- can you please post a link. Thanks!

    Lucky7

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    Quote Originally Posted by azmachining View Post
    It would be easy enough to do, I think McMaster has machinable star bar hubs and such.
    Do it....even a single speed one (like on my 102N-VM below) ....and then come back and tell us how "easy" it was

    Might not be too difficult to make a half ass one, but to make a proper one with extra long travel, collet holding taper, draw tube, stops, and one that moves smooth as silk with no play...that would not be easy.

    I have seen a photo of a half ass one on the backside of a Hardinge HLV-H tailstock...put it looked pretty pitiful.

    Also keep in mind on a larger lathe like the HLV-H and up, it really needs to be two speed so that when locked in the lower gear it can serve double duty as standard support tailstock without slipping. This is not necessary on the 102N-VM as the tailstocks are so light in weight it's nothing to switch them....but once the tailstock gets heavy, it is highly desirable for it to serve both purposes so removal is not necessary.....in which case it needs to be two speed, and then things get complicated design and machining wise.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Milacron View Post
    Do it....even a single speed one (like on my 102N-VM below) ....and then come back and tell us how "easy" it was

    Might not be too difficult to make a half ass one,
    I've used a "half assed" TS mod on production shift work. Simplest of mods, and it paid-off for the company many times over. "Hand lever" conversion from screw-operated. Cheap, cheerful, and very useful. Easy enough to justify the modest effort to implement, and "reversible" back to screw-operated if need be.

    Going the next few miles to starwheel/capstan, two or more ratios, dogs or clutches to select options and/or provide for power is harder to justify.

    Unless a given shop actually HAS an otherwise hard to satisfy need, and "lots of it", it may come out as a lovely to behold, but seldom actually NEEDED "decorator".

    The most prominent "feature" of Cazeneuve's complex one? The massive Mike Foxtrot tears 3 inches out of the already scant 30" c-to-c daylight budget, and is a bit of a chore to even position!

    That said, with a # 5 MT hollow ram, it could not do with adequate stiffness some of the things it was meant to be able to do if it was any shorter on the ways, nor any less massive.

    There are reaction forces involved when a TS is to be asked to do serious work.

    As to DIY from scratch?

    It is less money, time, and hard work to adapt a store-bought ready-made turret - even if of some other tribe and race than that of the lathe it is mated-up to.

    A proper turret may not be as "elegant" - many are a tad on the ugly side. Most just get in your way when not needed.

    WHEN tasking justifies their use, they are more universally useful for the time and money invested.

    No law a person cannot own more than one TS, after all. Once "fitted", they don't take that long to swap, "vet", and put to work.

    If I'm to "DIY" anything for that, it would be a crane or "skyhook" to make the swap easier and safer. Even then I do not wish to start "from scratch", only modify stock goods.

    Lazy, Iyam.


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    I hope Milacron will not ban be for posting this (because of the origin of the machine in the link ), but in my defense the author of the mod is German, very German, cnc programmer by day, home shop machinist and youtuber in the off time

    DIY star wheel tailstock

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    Quote Originally Posted by jz79 View Post
    I hope Milacron will not ban be for posting this (because of the origin of the machine in the link ), but in my defense the author of the mod is German, very German, cnc programmer by day, home shop machinist and youtuber in the off time

    DIY star wheel tailstock
    Inspiration is inspiration.

    He kept it simple enough. That, one supposes, is the "German" part.

    You want out-of-the-box approaches, you hire an Italian. Serious-weird, but "elegant", French or Belgian. Fiendish-weird, Swiss-French and Swiss-German compete, head-to-head. Laid-back, multi-lingual Italian-Swiss live off their service support, eat more interesting foods, probably shag as much as they work, seldom get ulcers.

    Specialization. Gotta love it!



    In any case, the concept here can be easily "ported". Even improved upon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jz79 View Post
    I hope Milacron will not ban be for posting this (because of the origin of the machine in the link ), but in my defense the author of the mod is German, very German, cnc programmer by day, home shop machinist and youtuber in the off time

    DIY star wheel tailstock
    OMG...all that trouble for that POS lathe...

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    If that German DIY star wheel tailstock is Stephan Gotswinter's work, his heavily re-worked lathe is anything but a POS. Started off crappy, I'd agree, but not after his mods. The guy can't afford Schaublin for his own shop, yet he's re-built and re- scraped several as paying work for picky Swiss folks...

    I'd say Stephan's work and work standard is worthy of respect.

    L7

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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky7 View Post
    rklopp, you were nice enough to post a pic of the Chipmaster tailstock re-do in Sept 2011, but link was lost with the photo storage site fiasco. I've also been searching for this info as would like to do the same to one of my lathes and Google-fu hasn't helped. If anyone finds the pics- can you please post a link. Thanks!

    Lucky7
    Man, I do not remember that post. I looked for any photos I might have had, and did not find anything. Are you sure it was me?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky7 View Post
    I'd say Stephan's work and work standard is worthy of respect.

    L7
    I don't know if it was his work or not. He isn't the only young person out there with easily as much skill between the ears as between the hands who does not have the words for "just lay down and die" yet in his vocabulary.

    Can't afford even a Myford?

    It wudda been done with reinforced concrete and heart-of-pine gibs so he could leverage that to build the better one, then bootstrap the next better one after that.

    Time was, that was a more common human trait, ANY field of endeavour. We've gone complacent.

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    I didn't mean to derail the thread into a discussion about the worth of those yellow tinted parts kits they call machine tools, I just wanted to show the amount of effort needed to do even a non sophisticated conversion from regular to star wheel TS, because the OP seems to think it is like a couple hours on a Sunday with few beers sort of a project.

    The upside of investing so much time in that particular machine is that you can't really screw things up and make it worse than it was before so the finished project may work as sort of an encouragement to take on more complicated stuff, and if something does go wrong, well, the replacement part will probably cost like a half tank of gas in your car. And I don't think they cover this sort of work in any engineering classes you can take, so the experience is well worth it for people starting out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jz79 View Post
    I didn't mean to derail the thread into a discussion about the worth of those yellow tinted parts kits they call machine tools, I just wanted to show the amount of effort needed to do even a non sophisticated conversion from regular to star wheel TS, because the OP seems to think it is like a couple hours on a Sunday with few beers sort of a project.
    No beer involved, but it might not have needed a lot more total time if done fifty years ago by a 40-year experienced toolmaker with a boatload of salvageable mechanisms laying over in the corner and fast gear and casting suppliers, but yeah.

    Today's world a CAD/CAM package can do all the calculations for yah, spit out code to CNC it, gearing and all.

    That ain't the same as "free" nor even "cheap" once metal hits the table of that machining center, and is probably NOT in the playtoy budget of a guy who just wants his ONE lathe to grow some extra goodness, either.

    Not saying "don't do it", but as with Don's point: Come back with it DONE and then tell us how "easy" it all was.

    High probability of project abandonment, midway, after a good deal of time and money have already been sunk. DAMHIKT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jz79 View Post
    because the OP seems to think it is like a couple hours on a Sunday with few beers sort of a project.
    Nope.
    All I said was it’s not rocket science. Someone ELSE called it easy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cyanidekid View Post
    Nope.
    All I said was it’s not rocket science. Someone ELSE called it easy.
    Yeah, the actual concepts are simple enough but the execution of the project is anything but "easy" from a tedium and time involvement standpoint if nothing else. Sorta like Edison said about new inventions being mostly perspiration rather than inspiration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milacron View Post
    Yeah, the actual concepts are simple enough but the execution of the project is anything but "easy" from a tedium and time involvement standpoint if nothing else. Sorta like Edison said about new inventions being mostly perspiration rather than inspiration.
    Exactly why this is still on my back list of projects while others get done.

    L7


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