"Waler" Matador for sale on west coast

I just came across and ad in the latest Machine Tools West mag for a Weiler, misspelled, for sale by a tool and die shop. Not an auction, and not, as far as I know, very widely advertised. The ad says "Waler german made model matador 11 -3/4 x 20 super precision too room engine lathe,15-3550 rpm extra fin. as new- $18,500."
The company is S&H tool and die, at 858-485-0160.
He has a whole list of stuff for sale, and in my opinion all of his prices are pretty high- so maybe he is just testing the waters, or maybe he really thinks his stuff is worth the big bucks- but he may negotiate. For instance, he also has a Moore 1 1/2 jig bore that he wants $5500 for, and a SAG 12 for $5700.
Anyway, I thought someone here might be interested in checking further on the lathe.

If it is the more modern style like this Praktikant of 1993 vintage-

www.practicalmachinist.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=000012

it might be worth his price. But if like a standard issue Matador like mine, the price is way too high. Tyical European dealer prices for a late 70's Weiler Matador are in the $12,000 range.

I'd sell my 1985 Weiler for $7,500 but suspect even that is too high for you cheapskates

For 18 grand it better be a model 2000 with factory cosmoline on the ways and tooling.

It's possible to have a used Weiler worth that, but it's really pushing the "if* envelope.

In other words, it should be nicer than mine which is a 1992 and came with a mostly new...and very complete tooling package.



Sean

Sean, do you know if there ever was a more modern design Matador or was changing the color to "white" pretty much all they did on the late ones ?

Machinery Values has a Weiler now too(a Condor):

Seems pretty well tooled as well.

http://www.machineryvalues.com/xdetails.cfm/QN/134617

I wonder if they are sure on the year of that Condor at MV. Looks more like 1958 than 1978 to me.

I would have to agree with you on that Don, that style of sheet metal just doesnt look right for that late of a model machine.

Charles

That's a good question Don. I haven't quite figured out Weilers thinking on this one.

The Matador is of course the German representation of the Monarch 10EE or HLV class lathe.

Although there is no documentation stating this, it looks to me that on similar years (while the Matador was in production), the Condor, or Prakitant were more purpose built...or "precision production" (saying this having looked in the chip pans of dozens of different models in Germany).

Like many German machine tools, they would carry an entire line with differences that take a magnifying glass to discover, and then a lifetime of machining experience in Germany to understand "why?".

I have dreamed that if I spoke fluent German that I would have asked the question and gotten the answer "Oh...this is for aerospace production and this is for aerospace toolroom"...if that makes any sense?

Maybe they just changed the shape for from boredom and called them "X, Y, Z", or maybe they had 3 designers and decided "ah heck, just make all of them".

For myself, I like the look of the late model Prakitant, but it is rumored that Weiler experimented with "out of country" production and the sheetmetal-less Matador was the only one I could be assured was still a purebreed, and the likey German reflection of the 10EE.

Did they make a sheetmetal Matador?... I'm raking my memory on this. Of course now they don't (condor and prakitant only), but I'm not sure if there was a crossover machine or not.

Sean
P.S. There are subtle "improvements" other than just changing to white on the late Matadors. Much like Deckels...a tweak here, a knob there, a different motor, integral DRO...etc etc. The basic design does however remain the same.

P.S.S While I like the white, like most late German machines, it is over green. My '95 E-50 is the same thing. These machines were painted white at the factory after having been painted green at the factory. I don't suppose I'll ever discover what the panic about green paint was in the late '80's through the 90's.
You might find it interesting though that many high-dollar Deckel (and other) refurb's in Germany are white even if everything else was brought to original spec'.

You never know, Maybe they were covering up the green lead based paint<----just a thought
Russ