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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    ...

    I decided that I would actually go see someone better qualified at body repairs than myself on that one, as my middle finger dangled.
    (looked like a fag)
    Ox
    Ah to be young, 10 foot tall and bulletproof.

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    Quote Originally Posted by otrlt View Post
    Bobw's suggestion may be an alternative. In my case, I would prefer turning a harder material. Pre-hardened to 27-32 is useless, finishes improve dramatically if the stock is closer to 36-42 HRC or higher. There is one draw back from using leaded stock; it doesn't black oxide very well.
    Non of the platers I have dealt with ever said boo about leaded material. I have been making parts outa 41L42 HT for over twenty years and have never had issues with black ox..................the stuff cuts beautifully, tool life is great. Even a bunch of drillin' with cobalt with no problems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Gear cutting and carbide vs HSS tooling.
    Oh-my over the last 50 decades. Newer carbides better, newer gear machines are faster.
    Older machines and making carbide work economically is not so easy. Dad chased this white whale for quite a while to no success.
    We do have a top notch gear cutting member here whom I think has made it work for him. Other side not talking to me so often so maybe not so good results.
    Bob
    Over kind words, to be sure. I don't know about "top notch" but I'm good enough to cut the spaces and not the teeth.

    At the risk of derailing 10 fingers's thread, your carbide works fantastically if we are mindful of every other factor that also needs to accommodate using carbide. Biggest players are Surface Speed capable of being reached ( without sending the machine dancing across the shop ) and Rake Angle of the cutter. I'll likely be ordering more soon, as matter of fact. We kept going this long simply because I bought so much, prior.

    That said, I have also started making HSS blanks to make the cutters from. There are times that it just isn't that feasible to achieve a good SFM for Carbide, where HSS just makes sense. The growing pains from that project were LEGION, but I'm glad that we did it. We continue to make many gears using custom tooling that we have made right here ( in house ), but it is decidedly not for common, standard gear/spline tooth forms, to be sure. Non-standard Pitch, Non-Standard Pressure Angle, Asymmetrical Tooth Forms, and Skip Tooth/Skip Space patterns? Yes. Otherwise, we're happy to purchase stock Hobs and Shaper Cutters.

    Quote Originally Posted by 10 fingers View Post
    I had resisting elaborating to not complicate the question. Albeit PVD coatings, we are cutting with cobalt HSS not much different than 100 years ago. Material machineability is paramount. Especially with 100s of 12" dia 4 pitch parts. No margin for supplemental heat treat at those weights. Up until a year ago life was great using aforementioned 4140/50HT RS (resulfurized.) Was produced by a mill in France. Unable to find an equivalent material elsewhere.

    Blue skies, -Don
    Bringing it back on track - I'm trying to scan through my emails from a year or so back. There was a place in Texas ( for some reason I am thinking Houston ) that we sourced some 4140 HTQT from, but I cannot seem to recall their name. Was 6" & 8" diameters, so they might have your "up to 12" as well. The stuff we bought did test at HRC32. More if I can find it...

    Blue Skies. When we going? And don't you dare tell me you were at Summerfest without calling.

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    Try Sunbelt Steel in Houston. About Us - Sunbelt Steel

    They specialize in 41xx Q & T material and whatever else you are looking for.

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    Thanks for suggestions, but I'm not a hobbyist here. Am committed to material specifications as a PO term, Have never encountered 41L40HT, Who's mill product is it? EG, Am running <60 SFM with a light finish cut to improve finish. Tools are premium, class A, TiN coated, Gleason hobs. Hobber is in perfect condition with no hint of looseness. Cutting oil is blended by an unnamed supplier to include frowned upon content. (Same as secretly used by a vendor to cut Inconel and Monel.) Normally works amazing, but not well enough compensate for lack of a free machining additive. ZK, Some of the SNE belly flyers were at summer fest. I had to beg off with thousands of hours in gear hobbing and shaping backlog with a non existent labor pool to add staff.

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    Gleason and Star both offer hob cutter coatings that blow TiN away.

    “Alcrona-Pro” is one that Star has.

    You might try a couple cutters with newer/better coatings, their improved hardness and lubricity can improve surface finish.

    ToolCat

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    Quote Originally Posted by 10 fingers View Post
    EG, Am running <60 SFM with a light finish cut to improve finish.
    Wasn't meaning to argue with you, was replying to Carbie Bob's idea about carbide (if you got a hammer, Rob't?). I agree, some steel just likes to tear. I see it more in shaper-cut parts though.

    Cutting oil is blended by an unnamed supplier to include frowned upon content.
    There was a place in Berkeley that made specialty cutting oils - they had an extreme pressure additive that we'd use in the broach, similar problem. But that doesn't sound practical for hobbing.

    If you can't find anything that works in the US, I honestly don't think importing from the original supplier would be that big a deal. A little more tied up in inventory but that's about it, not like steel bars are fragile or anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zahnrad Kopf View Post

    Bringing it back on track - I'm trying to scan through my emails from a year or so back. There was a place in Texas ( for some reason I am thinking Houston ) that we sourced some 4140 HTQT from, but I cannot seem to recall their name. Was 6" & 8" diameters, so they might have your "up to 12" as well. The stuff we bought did test at HRC32. More if I can find it...

    .
    These guys should have that stuff.

    North American Metals

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    Call the steel mill in France that makes the re-sulfurized chromoly HT and see if they have another importer in the states yet.

    Too bad it isn't 1996 or earlier. You could tune up your cutting oil with 1,1,1-trichloroethane.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alphonso View Post
    These guys should have that stuff.

    North American Metals
    That's them! Thank you. That was bugging the crap out of me. There ya go, Don. See what they have for you.

    Related - Early on, ( for whatever reason ) I had assumed that you were referring to turning. Hence my comment about inserts. It never even occurred to me that you were referring to the Hobbing.

    In that regard, ToolCat is very much correct. Some of the newer coatings are noticeably better than the old TiN. We have tried a few. Hob life and finishes were noticeably increased. If interested, check with Oerlikon Balzers. Good luck!

    I'll have to see about heading out your way later this season. Have a good friend ( my Rigger ) that has another DZ not too awfully far and could make a trip of it. ( Shenandoah Valley )

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    ZK, I just called the the suggested distributor. They do not inventory or have aver sold a free machining grade of 4140HT/4150HT. I can buy same product they distribute most anywhere. Regarding PVD coatings, I work closely with vendors for unique coatings when shaping and hobbing nickle alloy and elevated hardness aerospace product. Find the various coatings a huge advantage in tool life and productivity. Not so much for surface finish in alloy steels. In another lifetime did consulting for shaping of abrasive, friction materials as used on off-highway, multi plate clutches. Carbide really shined there. But on ferrous materials the cost, handing damage and chipping on interrupted cuts were insurmountable pitfalls. Foliage rides in New England are remarkable. May be away much of Oct hunting.

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    The mill in France is Ascometal, the plant in Dunkerque makes most of the large diameter steel bars, but 12" is made in Fos. Sunbelt, North American and all the others are buying from the same mills. The sourcing for 12" is Ascometal, Timken and Chinese mills. There are a few shops in Houston that can HT it for you, but AISI 4140 does not have enough alloy to harden very deep at 12 inch diameter. There are some Oil Country grades with modified chemistries (more alloy) that can be hardened higher and deeper. Been out of the business for a few years, so don't know what's available currently. With $3/gallon gas the Houston distributors may be increasing their inventories for the first time in years so you will need to call to see what they have.

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    Most all of the Houston vendors will carry 4145H in the Q & T in the 285-341 BHN. That's around 28-36 HRC. The 4145H can have a HT penetration of about 4" deep minimum in 12" OD bar when heat treated in a solid bar. Most carry it annealed for reheat treatment in the larger sizes. There's plenty of heat treaters in Houston to make it as hard as you want it, too.

    The only vendor I recall that may carry any 41xx leaded would be Kilsby/Jorgensen Steel. I don't think they offer any leaded over 6" diameter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 10 fingers View Post
    ZK, I just called the the suggested distributor. They do not inventory or have aver sold a free machining grade of 4140HT/4150HT.
    I'm still searching for the paperwork, but I was pretty sure it was them. I must be getting old... sorry about that.


    Quote Originally Posted by 10 fingers View Post
    Foliage rides in New England are remarkable. May be away much of Oct hunting.
    I hope that you can find the time to get away, without impacting business!

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    Earle M. Jorgensen

    Alloy_Steels.pdf (emjmetals.com)

    Quoted from pdf on page 19, "4150 Modified Resulphurized Heat Treated Bars

    4150 Modified Resulphurized is a free-machining chromium-molybdenum alloy steel.
    It is a relatively high hardenability alloy so that in the heat treated condition it has good
    overall strength and toughness. Being a resulphurized steel, it machines easily. It is
    supplied in the heat treated condition to a Brinell hardness of 262-311."

    Sizes:
    Pressed Rounds
    Heat Treated

    < 11"
    plus:
    11"
    12"
    12 1/2"
    13"
    13 1/2"
    14"
    15"
    16"
    16 1/2"
    17 1/2"
    18"

    They show leaded 4140 and 8620, too.

    (This pdf was printed in 2007, so it is most likely out of date.)

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