Addressing customers that don't follow instructions

I'll give a scenario as the actual situation is still in discussion with my customer.

You send a customer an end mill and they tell you it doesn't cut worth a damn.
They send it back, all the flutes are "rubbed" away.
Turns out they were running CCW instead of CW.
Send them another, they pay for it, next week same problem.

At what point in the discussion do you either lay into them how stupid they are or stop selling to these customers? I feel as though I could open a baby sitting service for the mechanically declined.
I'm not talking about rebuilding a 30k rpm ceramic bearing spindle, basic stuff equal to changing a car tire...

More and more I speak to shops that say, "We don't have anybody that can do (fill in the blank) mechanical job"


Mike

mjk said:

I'll give a scenario as the actual situation is still in discussion with my customer.

You send a customer an end mill and they tell you it doesn't cut worth a damn.
They send it back, all the flutes are "rubbed" away.
Turns out they were running CCW instead of CW.
Send them another, they pay for it, next week same problem.

At what point in the discussion do you either lay into them how stupid they are or stop selling to these customers? I feel as though I could open a baby sitting service for the mechanically declined.
I'm not talking about rebuilding a 30k rpm ceramic bearing spindle, basic stuff equal to changing a car tire...

More and more I speak to shops that say, "We don't have anybody that can do (fill in the blank) mechanical job"


Mike

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.
most places buy and sell by yearly contracts and rates or discounts are yearly decided. vendors make mistakes too. like them sending 1/4-20 taps when they were suppose to be M6 taps. like obviously they didnt confirm items before sending
.
not worth getting excited over it. i have often encountered rude salesman and rather than go to local vendor just ordered off the internet so i didnt have to deal with rude salesman

Well, if they keep paying for them... If that's a consistent problem I'd be concerned about their long term prospects for survival.

if its a customer that orders over a $1 million a year in stuff usually you give them some slack otherwise they might take their business to someone else

I owned a transmission rebuilding business for a few years.


A hard learned lesson was to always let the customer drive first for the test drive to show me the problem.

Stupid has no limits. It was very easy to decline jobs I would have otherwise accepted after seeing how they drove.

I remember being 23 and giving 3 pedal driving lessons to a guy in his 40's. "Drove stick his whole life" he said.

Ask the problem customer to send video of how the endmill fails (show the spindle direction in the same shot).

To clarify:
The end mill example was that just that, an example that would be easy for this audience to understand how low the level of mechanical ability has dropped to for many of my customers.
I don't sell end mills.

20 years ago I would speak to the maintenance supervisor, or an electrician or a millwright.
Now I speak to owners of the companies that most of the time are pushing paper around and that have fewer people with less skills.

mjk said:

...Now I speak to owners of the companies that most of the time are pushing paper around and that have fewer people with less skills.

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If you're trying to convey technical information, the owner is probably not the best person to talk to. He's going to pass on his interpretation of what you tell him to his guy, who may pass it further on to the guy doing the work.

I would want to tell the guy doing the work. If the owner wants to be in the room, fine. If it's not an in-person conversation, put the instructions in writing and include it when you send the tool or whatever it is to the customer.

Not you're responsibility to look over their shoulder, but give them all the help you can...

mjk said:

I'll give a scenario as the actual situation is still in discussion with my customer.

You send a customer an end mill and they tell you it doesn't cut worth a damn.
They send it back, all the flutes are "rubbed" away.
Turns out they were running CCW instead of CW.
Send them another, they pay for it, next week same problem.

At what point in the discussion do you either lay into them how stupid they are or stop selling to these customers? I feel as though I could open a baby sitting service for the mechanically declined.
I'm not talking about rebuilding a 30k rpm ceramic bearing spindle, basic stuff equal to changing a car tire...

More and more I speak to shops that say, "We don't have anybody that can do (fill in the blank) mechanical job"


Mike

Click to expand...

I guess in the case of an endmill, the chain of stupidity could have begun earlier with the design of the typical turret mill having a reversal of rotation between high range and low range. This could mess up a customer who would logically think that "ON" will always be the same direction regardless of what range it is in. Lathes don't reverse willy nilly between ranges, why would the mill, they might think.

And if you're not looking for something, then chances are great that you won't see it, even when plainly visible. It's just how our minds work when inexperienced. We are never on alert for ALL happenings, ALL the time, or we'd go batshit crazy. Most of us have slowly gained thousands of bits of experience that are 'common sense'. Chronological age has nothing to do with common sense, rather, it is how many varieties of experience have you had, and do you retain the knowledge gained from bad experiences? If your customer is the type who doesn't remember the lessons learned, then you can't fix stupid.

You mention they are paying for the replacements. Are they squawking about paying? If not sounds like it is not a problem for you in fact it is extra sales. If they are blaming you for the failures I would make sure you document everything.

Whether they are blaming you or not, if the value of the work warrants it I might off to come in and meet with the owner and user together. Ideally out in the plant. Go over the usage of the product and the things that could be causing the failures leave notes/manual for the product. Seeing the way they use the product maybe you can do a Premium or slightly different product for them that will avoid the destruction. That might be a enhancement that you can sell to other customers.

To keep it consistent, I've sold endmills for a couple years now. It's kind of amazing how problems seem to disappear once you show up, even after being called into investigate "an issue."

In your case, at least they're sending back a damaged endmill. (Yes, I know this is all hypothetical...) So that at least validates that there is a legitimate problem. Should be pretty easy to watch them along through the process and find where the problem occurs.




The problem is, once you fix their problem (I.E. the right thing to do,) you cut into your sales. The customer may not even appreciate what you've done for them - some are that obtuse. And soon they'll switch to someone who's a nickel cheaper, even though you helped solve a problem with their business, that when all things are considered, is bigger than the cost that you saved them.

But then, if you don't fix the problem, that next guy will, and then they'll think you were screwing them the whole time by not fixing the issue...




I guess my point is, doing business with stupid people never pays off in the end...

Jashley73 said:

doing business with stupid people never pays off in the end...

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If you can put that on a poster, I'll buy one.

Send very explicit instructions with the next order. If same problem exists and the business is worth the effort, go there, ask them to show you what they are doing, offer your advise.

If that does not help, thank them for their business and refer them to a competitor. Life is short.

Paul

Jashley73 said:

...

The problem is, once you fix their problem (I.E. the right thing to do,) you cut into your sales. The customer may not even appreciate what you've done for them - .....

Click to expand...

He-he
While this is not an endmill that fix the problem and cut into your sales is the job.
You cut your own throat before the competition does. The cut is not as deep that way.

If a recurring problem a note or tag attached to the shipped product helps the actual end user who may not be well trained or paid.
Hopefully the end user's bosses appreciate the effort.

The other side if they don't want to listen is "Eat um up..we'll make more".
Stupid can be very profitable. They will whine and cry which is an annoyance but meanwhile you cash the checks.
Bob

There’s always something positive even in the worst situation. Here you have the opportunity to educate a customer and shape the business. Be polite, do something, they’ll treat you a king.

Ok guys I guess the end mill example is being focused on and I should give a little better example.
I’ll try another parallel that would show concern about the same lack of mechanical knowledge. I’ve purposely not posted my companies product as Google has a tendency of pulling from this site info not needed by my customers.

Just supposing I was a manufacture of a small specialty benchtop mill that did a particular job, with qtys of 30/year sold to a limited customer base. This mill has been produced for around 60 + years and known throughout its target industry (worldwide) as the tool to use for the very specific job.
Not huge at around 200lbs valued between $3500-$7000 depending on options.

I have a customer that I’ve sold this machine to several years ago and although they have bought the normal service parts (cutters) each year, within the last month they call and say, its not working and ………
Phone calls and emails and assurances the machine is set up as instructed lead to the customer saying they want to send the machine back for “repair”.
Ok instructions are sent to the customer that certain things MUST be done when shipping one of these machines.
The blade MUST be removed
The main portion of the “mill” has to be removed from the mounting base
If sending by UPS, the machine must be split into 3 manageable pieces and protected with excessive foam, not newspaper.
If sending back by freight carrier it must be palletized(after blade and base removed) and sufficiently protected to make it to my shop without damage. If the original shipping box is available, it should be used. (¾” plywood box on 6 sides secured to a pallet)
Notify me as soon as the shipment is on its way with tracking or pro #

So this past Monday I read an e-mail asking if I’ve seen their machine yet.
After a few emails and calling the freight company, I make arrangements for it to be delivered.
Truck arrives, and out comes the machine.
Nailed down to a pallet, with the base still attached, the blade still attached and a piece of shrink wrap for protection. The shipping “label” is a piece of paper with the customers name and address. No “Ship to “ address.
Oh and the blade is on backwards.

So besides the fact they didn’t follow the shipping instructions, they have been (at least recently) trying to use the machine with the blade installed backwards.
When I emailed the customer, they apologized for the blade not being removed, and asked how long to “fix” the machine.
It wasn’t broken!!!!!
I really wanted to call the customer and read them the “riot act”

The one thing that I used to included with shipping instructions, was
“Failure to follow these instructions will result in a refused shipment”
I would like to bring that back, but it would probably backfire in my face.

I told them its on the work schedule for next week.
Any damage caused by the incompetence will be billed both for parts and labor.
Any dollars coming in are a good thing, but I don’t want to base my living off of others stupidity.

This is a worse case of a customer not following basic instructions, but I’ve noticed over the last 5 or so years, its happening more and more in different degrees.
My customer base has always been “in tune” with what they needed, what to ask for and how to service.
Should a company that is using a piece of machinery be so lacking in mechanical skills and expect to both stay in business and also not hurt someone?
I’ve never had to “baby sit” a customer, although I will spend any amount of time needed on the phone to answer a question.

Yes you can’t fix stupid

Sorry if this long winded, its more than an end mill issue

And yes I have always been polite and courteous, but possibly its time for the curmudgeon to show his ugly side once and a while

Perhaps: "To ensure your machine's safety while it's in the hands of the shipper, please send some photographs of the packed-up machine prior to shipment. That way, when it comes off the truck, I can note any external damage or tampering."

Now, that does somewhat put you in the mix for a portion of 'responsibility' for things, but it would head off the nail-it-to-the-pallet crowd.

You can't fix stupid with a hammer. Or maybe you can...

quadruple the price and tell them to try these new amazing CW long lasting cutters

The client has a good manager bad floor problem.

Manager wants machine to work for production but it is not working on floor.

Line folks claim machine issue and management wants it fixed.

Shipping complete allows it to be "seen as used" to allow a better evaluation of the circumstance.

Document everything with lots of photos.

Contact owner and invite a visit to your facility so you can review your inspection and offer "maintenance" services as well as lunch.

Only in their presence do you remove blade.

We thinks shop Forman is issue but owner needs to discover this.

Offer to fully tune up machine while there and proper repack.

We been there many times with different scenarios and owners usually are out of loop but proper presentation and you then own the client as they gain knowledge of operations and in this case the obvious.

Take the opportunity to "wife proof" your instruction manual...can your wife properly setup the machine from an untooled state and make chips without asking any questions?

Clarity in the manual is critical as we assume things go some way or with modern stupid snap together things that of it goes in it must be right as it cannot go in wrong.

Line like "verify cutting edge points toward (some part on machine) "

Maybe a sticker with image of cutter...

Simple things as this user has problem but others may have damaged things but realized they made a mistake and took the hit.

Make your machine more idiot tollerant...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

MJK

This is a tough one but I think it is more up to you to dumb down instructions for your customer. Common sense is a thing of the past and companies today are taking someone off the street and putting them on a machine. In a way I think you have to dumb proof your equipment that you sell. Is they a list of instructions on how to setup the machine and is there a training manual or onsite training involved when you sell the equipment? 95 percent of the population probably can figure out how to install the saw blade but that small 3-5 percent will install is wrong and wreck the machine. I am sure someone has tried to suing a company for doing something stupid with a machine but if you don't have instructions telling them to not install the saw blade backwards it voids a mechanical break down warranty.


As a programmer I have to now make a set up sheet with instructions that tells the operator how to load and unload a part in a fixture. I also have to dumb proof the fixture so they can't physically load a part wrong. Even with common sense they will still manage to load a part wrong and wipe out a fixture or tooling. The hardest thing I encounter is that we take people off the street to load and unload parts.

I think I'd do it like my auto mechanic.

"Well, we checked it out and it needs... Oh, and the blade was on backwards so we fixed that, no charge."

If they don't want any maintenance done while its there, just bill them for the evaluation, pack it up, ship it back.