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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by scadvice View Post
    Saw one of these the other day on a guy. I had to look it up and post here. Interesting... a little pricey though...

    FlexiFreeze Personal Cooling Kit, Zipper Front - - Amazon.com
    I like it, the price wouldn't be bad at all if it worked well. I spend more than that on BS sometimes..
    Used to have this Indiana Jones looking hat that you soak in cold water then wear...felt like heaven on my bald head. Dunno why I havnt replaced it yet. Guess I have just become to accustomed to the heat.

    Dunno about yall, but if I start out my day early I can make it through the day but on days were I am in the office for most of the morning then go out to the shop I get my ass kicked by the heat.

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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronReb View Post
    ...Dunno about yall, but if I start out my day early I can make it through the day but on days were I am in the office for most of the morning then go out to the shop I get my ass kicked by the heat.
    That's the best advice. I start early and work as long as I can, then go sit in the AC office and do the paperwork at the end of the day.

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  5. #43
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    The below tale is how those of you in rented space might have AC.

    I had friends in the auction business who rented a metal building that had been a tobacco auction house. It had one layer of 5 V metal for roof and sides. It mostly kept rain and thieves out.

    We dropped the ceiling and insulated that, and furred out the walls and insulated that. It still got stinking hot on auction nights, Friday 6 - 10 PM.

    I would interview ugly, nasty, rusty, noisy, window air conditioners, which went cheap because no one wanted them. I would wire them up on the loading dock and stick a thermometer in the cold air outlet. If it made 40 degree F or less we bought it. I mounted them on an outside wall up high and bypassed the thermostat so they ran wide ass open or off. There were eventually 6, Five 20 amp 240 volt and one 20 amp 120 volt. Some ran for years and years, occasionally one would last only a season. We paid $50 to $150 each for them.

    The owners would come in at 6 AM and turn on the ACs to get the place cold soaked. At 5 PM people would start coming and by 6 there were 125 - 150 people there. By 8 - 8:30 it would start getting uncomfortable.
    All the best high end stuff was auctioned first so when people started leaving the auctioneers were not hurt too much. Every auction was an absolute, no minimum, everything sold, so at the end one could fill a pick up for $20 - $30, then take it to the flea market on Saturday.

    Paul

  6. #44
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    We A/C ed the shop here in central Texas a few years ago. Best move ever. Took a guy coming in for an interview, everything looked/sounded great. Boss was really interested in getting this guy, and this guy was very interested in working here. Good fit all around. Then he toured the shop. Open roll up doors. In Central Texas. In July or August I believe. He said it all looked great, but he couldn't do it. Heat would kill him. Turns out he had gotten too hot at some point in the past, and had absolutely no tolerance for the heat anymore, heatstroke kinda thing.
    I had told the boss years before that he would always have problems attracting quality people w/o A/C in the shop. Plus, at 110 in the shade and 85%+ on the humidity, he was destroying the electronics on the machinery. So he FINALLY bites the bullet, and we figure out how much A\C to load into the shop. Which he does. One problem. He figures square footage. Machine heat load.Adds some for good measure. Installs it. Then the people in the warehouse put up a squall. "WE WANT SOME TOO!" Which is understandable, but when you open that roll up between the warehouse and the shop, you effectively double the square footage being cooled. So now, NOBODY really gets cool, just not as hot as we used to get. Shop gets down to mid 80s, maybe 81 on a cloudy day.
    Oh well, I tried.
    Sometimes that's all I can do.

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  8. #45
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    Noticed it was getting a little warm out in the shop the other day, around 74°-75°, up from the usual 71°-72°. One unit's compressor was biting the dust—$4,800 installed, will be here tomorrow. Absolutely a total bite in the ass, but once you're used to A/C you absolutely can't live without it.

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  10. #46
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    I have just finished the first full week of AC in the shop and it is the best thing ever. The shop is 5000 sqft with 20 ft ceilings and lots of insulation. We insulated the whole building and we are sandwhiched between two buildings. I leave it on overnight but we turn it down to 80, during the day I have it at 78. I will never go back I will pay the bill gladly and just figure out how to make more money. We actually are getting more done because we can work in the shop.

  11. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpotter View Post
    I have just finished the first full week of AC in the shop and it is the best thing ever. The shop is 5000 sqft with 20 ft ceilings and lots of insulation. We insulated the whole building and we are sandwhiched between two buildings. I leave it on overnight but we turn it down to 80, during the day I have it at 78. I will never go back I will pay the bill gladly and just figure out how to make more money. We actually are getting more done because we can work in the shop.
    20-footers means LOTS of stratification. That can actually be put to the good, rather than argued with.

    Not a priority for you in your time of catch-up after heat has dragged you down, but.. when cooler weather lets you get another look at it, you can typically cut 15%, minimum, off the running cost with nothing more than good sensors and timers as far as spend.

    That spend is non-recurring, very close to fire-and-forget as far as nuisance, whilst the savings run every season until move-out or drop-dead day.

    ISTR you have a flat roof, and nobody above you, too? Could be another major opportunity there, as well.

  12. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpotter View Post
    I have just finished the first full week of AC in the shop and it is the best thing ever. The shop is 5000 sqft with 20 ft ceilings and lots of insulation. We insulated the whole building and we are sandwhiched between two buildings. I leave it on overnight but we turn it down to 80, during the day I have it at 78. I will never go back I will pay the bill gladly and just figure out how to make more money. We actually are getting more done because we can work in the shop.

    I've always had a/c in my shops. We keep it set at a constant 72*. Could not work without it.

    Happy employees are productive employees!

    Congrats Kevin!

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    This is one of our units. Looks kind of dumb out on the lawn like that but we didn't have structural provision for it on the roof. The other big one is on the roof at the other end of the building and we made sure it was accommodated in the building design.

    Financed by the parking meter...actually have had three visitors so far apologize for not having change. It takes pennies and they didn't realize it's just a gag. Makes me want to install a credit card slot.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails parking-meter.jpg  

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  16. #50
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    It makes a world of difference. I remember it getting so hot that some of the CNCs began shutting down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronReb View Post
    30 years at this trade and out of those 30, 1 year of it was at a climate controlled shop.
    Being right in the middle of the south you can imagine there are many many days of 95+ at the machine your running.

    The way the foreman kept production up at one place I worked, large job shop, was using his favorite saying.."If you can't do it I will get someone who can tomorrow"

    I ENVY the hell out of you guys who don't have to constantly wipe oily sweat off your glasses or having to keep reaching down and pulling up your sweat soaked drawers and pants.
    'was doing some bench filing today after a session arc welding.

    At the bench, I looked down at the floor and could see the pattern of sweat that had dropped off my hands and forearms. I didn't get to the point of dripping drawers, but it was close! ;-)
    I

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  19. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by assface421 View Post
    I was just in Tucson this past weekend, went to Saguaro National park. It was awesome, kinda stormy out. Was thinking about moving down there. What is the Machining industry like in the area?
    I heard that ACME is always looking for new suppliers.

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  21. #53
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    As far as jobs in Tucson for machinists I think there are a few but the pay is not that great. The bomb factory is always hiring and I think they pay pretty good. I am in a small nich market and only do manual machining. I can ask around I dont think it would be too hard to find a job in town.

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  23. #54
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    see if your scrap rate goes down.

    is Tucson power still jacking the rates up in the summer?

    wife lived there back in the 80s said they raised the rates in the summer.
    is so you can pay for a solar array in a few years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CalG View Post
    'was doing some bench filing today after a session arc welding.

    At the bench, I looked down at the floor and could see the pattern of sweat that had dropped off my hands and forearms. I didn't get to the point of dripping drawers, but it was close! ;-)
    I
    Somebody once wrote, "Filing closely resembles very hard work."

    I care less about climate-controlling the machines than I do about climate-controlling me...

  25. #56
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    My first two shops were AC, and last year was my first summer in my newest shop, no AC. It has those roof vents you open with a chain, and I put in a 4' fan in the end near the peak to pull breeze. It is very nice until it gets about 80 outside, at 87/90 out the shop is at 100 or better (I keep several machines running).
    At 43, I cannot take that kind of heat so this spring I had HVAC folks come in a give me quotes. They all came in around 50K.(shop is 10K square feet, 12' eves, but main bay with my CNCs is 100' x 40') Holy $hit! I dragged my feet until we had two days at 90. I went down to Sears and they had one 25k btu unit, on sale. I brought it back, set it on a cart and plugged it in, let it blow an hour to see if it put out enough to make a difference. ALso checked the AMP draw, 3.5. Liking what I saw, I went back and ordered 3 more. When they came in I installed them about 7' up, down one wall, blowing at my work area and closer together in my main work area.
    I turn them on at 6am and its cold until about 11, never gets over 70! I was more than curious about what it would do to my electric bill: just got one that has a full month of 4 window units running 11 hours a day. Went up $200. AC units were $590 each and with no more electric costs than that I am one happy guy. Life is too short to melt all day.

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  27. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    Details man, details!

    What's the square footage of your shop? How tall are the ceilings?

    How did the contractors determine that two 5-ton units was enough?

    What brand of units did you get?

    Could you post some pics of the install, and the ductwork?

    How much has it added to your monthly electric bill?

    I want to install air at the shop next year (after sweating like a dog for 20 years), and the plan is to do it myself. I can source the air conditioning unit(s) through a contractor friend at wholesale pricing. I have a 4,000 sq.ft. shop with 16-ft ceilings, a standard metal building with standard amounts of insulation.

    ToolCat Greg
    Greg, I thought I'd fill in the blanks a little...

    Kevin's shop is 5000 sq ft and 10 tons, so 500 ft/ton, and 20 foot ceilings.

    Our shop area in Phoenix is 12,500 sq ft with 22' ceilings, and we have 80 tons of AC - BUT only 40 run on a normal basis, so 300 ft/ton normally, but we have had all 80 tons running at one time when the riggers had the doors open most of a morning last summer. When we moved in, the shop had 4 large evap coolers, which sound inexpensive to run until you consider they had 7.5HP motors that never shut off (and very difficult to control temperature), add to that the $4-5k per year in maintenance and they are not that great on the checkbook, so we exchanged those for the 4 new 10-ton units. As far as figuring how much AC to put on, we duplicated the tonnage of the old units and my AC guy has done quite a bit for other CNC shops, so we figured the new 10 ton units should keep up fine, but have the two old 20 ton units if needed.

    We can keep the shop at pretty much any temperature we want down to 68F on the 4 new 10-ton units. The units are Trane commercial units with two 5-ton compressors, so most of the time they run half-loaded, and they are actually heat pumps, so we get heat if needed in the winter - the last couple of winters we never needed the heat as the machines keep the building plenty warm. That is a consideration - our QTN lathes tend to give off quite a bit of heat, more so than the mills it seems, all adding to the heat load. Kevin says his machines are all manual, so there is little heat load off the machines, but when we are running production turning, I think there is quite a bit of heat generated by the motors and hydraulics as well as in the cutting zone, and all of our mills have spindle chillers. The units are rooftop style and the ductwork was quite simple, a basic screened air intake just below the roof trusses, and a plenum for supply air with ~10" x 30" adjustable diffusers on four sides. I have six programmable thermostats mounted in our IT room with temperature sensors mounted in the shop so no one is screwing around with the temp or programs.

    We did have one hot week this summer and only one day got to 120F, and we still didn't need to fire up either of the old 20-ton units, the four 10 ton units handled the load fine. We of course keep the roll up doors down all the time, the walls are insulated and the roof is a foam system.

    Our old shop was about 6,000 sq ft and it had 3 - 3HP evap coolers, but when we moved we only got a small bump on the bill, even though we more than doubled the shop size and have 3,000 sq ft of office. Where I have noticed a big impact on the bill is how much our horizontals run...if we have the Palletech loaded and humpin', the bill reflects it.

    Hope this helps...

    Steve

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveinAZ View Post
    ...and the roof is a foam system.
    After years of trying to keep up with leaks from expansion/contraction of the steel and the destructive effects of UV on sealant at one mile elevation and a lot of sunny days, we had the roof foamed back in April. I had always resisted considering foam (visualizing some kind of low-density crap like we use in packages that would peel off in the wind) but this stuff seemed pretty serious. After overspray landed on my car, which was parked some distance away in the neighbor's lot, I found out it is some pretty durable stuff. Cost $250 at a local body shop to have it removed (which the contractor took care of; he'd had considerable experience with the issue and I would guess builds it into every job quote). We had them coat the fiberglass skylights as well. They were old enough to have discolored and the light through them looked like Halloween decor, so no loss there. Anyway, no leaks, and a ten year warranty of no leaks. So far there does seem to be some reduction in the electric bill, which should be fairly significant long-term since the HVAC runs 24/7/365. After this winter I'll have some comparative data, bit I'm highly impressed so far. Cost of coating was $40K compared with $55K to replace the decking.

  30. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwrench View Post
    After years of trying to keep up with leaks from expansion/contraction of the steel and the destructive effects of UV on sealant at one mile elevation and a lot of sunny days, we had the roof foamed back in April. I had always resisted considering foam (visualizing some kind of low-density crap like we use in packages that would peel off in the wind) but this stuff seemed pretty serious. After overspray landed on my car, which was parked some distance away in the neighbor's lot, I found out it is some pretty durable stuff. Cost $250 at a local body shop to have it removed (which the contractor took care of; he'd had considerable experience with the issue and I would guess builds it into every job quote). We had them coat the fiberglass skylights as well. They were old enough to have discolored and the light through them looked like Halloween decor, so no loss there. Anyway, no leaks, and a ten year warranty of no leaks. So far there does seem to be some reduction in the electric bill, which should be fairly significant long-term since the HVAC runs 24/7/365. After this winter I'll have some comparative data, bit I'm highly impressed so far. Cost of coating was $40K compared with $55K to replace the decking.


    We have a 10-year warranty on our roof too, but they require re-coating of the UV topcoat at about 6 years to keep the warranty rolling, so take that how ever you wish to look at it, but in Arizona, we have a few fairly strong sun days too. Check with your roofer to see when he recommends re-coating, it's the white "paint" that keeps the foam from getting sun damaged.

    Steve

  31. #60
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    I got our first full bill for the ac electricty. We kept the shop at 78 degrees during the work day. 83 after we left. The bill was 789 which was about 200 dollars more than usual, our water bill was cut in half so it was only costing us about 160 dollars more per month to be comfortable. I love this I wish I could have afforded it earlier.

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