Skill Building - Mixing CNC & Manual Machines...?

Jashley73 · Mar 13, 2018

This idea was prompted from another thread, but it's a common theme.

There's a skilled labor shortage. Shops hire inexperienced people to man CNC equipment running some form of production, offer minimal/scattered training, and things quickly fall into a rut... There's little challenge after long, and the operators get bored & go "idle" between part changes. Management complains that the employees have little drive to learn more & progress.

Has anyone ever toyed with the idea of mixing manual & CNC machines in their shop? I can see several reasons/benefits, such as...

-Gives the employee a different, challenging job to work on in-between the mindless task of swapping parts on the CNC.

-Keeps the employee from going "idle" on their phones/computer.

-Offers a chance to build skills.

So I'm curious, has anyone here actually done this? Is there any benefit to parking a small engine lathe in the CNC milling cell? Or a Bridgeport next to the CNC lathes? And I'm not talking about for manual, post-OP work. Something totally independent of the main CNC jobs. Even if it's just a "here, make this tool for your tool-box so you learn something new" type task.

Thoughts...?

alphonso · Mar 13, 2018

At 72, I'm a dinosaur. Been in a shop one way or another since I was 8. When I finally got CNC machines in '93, biggest hurdles were learning to program, adjust to the speed of things happening, and convincing the machines to do things the way I knew worked. Biggest disappointment on the lathes was not being able to use my 3 inch spade drill any more.

We used to make torque converter hubs for the guys in the area that rebuilt them. #4 Morey turret lathe and #3 Cincinnati horizontal mill. Had a number of different machine salesmen come in and try to convince me that CNC would improve the bottom line. After much consideration by them, consensus of opinion was that unless I had at least half the national market, just keep on doing what I was doing. Local market dried up about 2 years later when the major supplier of rebuilds dropped their prices and put all the locals out of business.

I had a number of different people that started with me on manuals and when they were ready, jumped onto the CNCs. As they moved on, I think all of them felt like the manual experience was invaluable to their continuing machining education.

As a job shop, there are a number of things that are done manually for one or more reasons.

1. Don't have a CNC that is capable of handling the part.
2. It is faster to do it manually. (Don't start with the Mazak mantra BOBW).
3. CNC that can handle the job is tied up with something else for too long.

Yes, I prefer to use the CNCs whenever possible, maybe because I am getting lazier in my dotage.

otrlt · Mar 13, 2018

Jashley73 said:
Has anyone ever toyed with the idea of mixing manual & CNC machines in their shop? I can see several reasons/benefits, such as...

-Gives the employee a different, challenging job to work on in-between the mindless task of swapping parts on the CNC.

-Keeps the employee from going "idle" on their phones/computer.

-Offers a chance to build skills.

Hello Jashley73,
Your idea certainly has merit an I'm sure that this scheme is practiced extensively.

Unfortunately, many shops that have invested heavily on automation have found themselves short on talent. CNCs are just a vehicle, without support equipment and skill, these automated machines will have limited potential.

Bobw · Mar 13, 2018

But it is FASTER on a Mazak

A thought.. If your people are getting bored, maybe you hired the wrong kind of people.
Don't take that in a negative way.. I'm pointing out that maybe traditional "machinist"
isn't what we/you/I need to run parts...

And I don't mean this to be sexist, but I've found that woman are better able to cope with
repetitive jobs. They, at least in my experience, have a better ability to keep focused on
details, over and over again. And woman don't typically seek out work in a machine shop..

Guy down the street, when he used to run production, his entire second shift was women.. He
found the same thing I did... I had one lady that worked for me years ago, she was the goto
for repetive deburring on small parts, she loved it, she was good at it.. Said it reminded her
of crocheting with her grandma when she was a kid...

Having said all that...

I don't think a manual mill and lathe in a cell is a bad idea at all... Call it the recreational
mill and lathe..

Oldwrench · Mar 13, 2018

Jashley73 said:
-Gives the employee a different, challenging job to work on in-between the mindless task of swapping parts on the CNC.

Definitely. Especially making workholding devices for the CNCs. We needed four 5C internal collets with threads close to a shoulder. The CNC operator hadn't chased threads on an engine lathe since a college course 6 years ago, but by the time those fixtures were done she was an expert. Manual experience is a skill multiplier.

-Keeps the employee from going "idle" on their phones/computer.

That's a different issue, which we solved by not allowing phones in the building.

So I'm curious, has anyone here actually done this? Is there any benefit to parking a small engine lathe in the CNC milling cell? Or a Bridgeport next to the CNC lathes? And I'm not talking about for manual, post-OP work. Something totally independent of the main CNC jobs. Even if it's just a "here, make this tool for your tool-box so you learn something new" type task. Thoughts...?

We do have a drill press in the middle of a four-machine cell but it's for a countersinking op that gets done while the CNCs are in cycle. I wouldn't exactly count it as a learning experience; it's mainly to get a nuisance operation offline. Although the operator does have to keep about 25 interchangeable counterbore pilots straight, so it's not like you can go to sleep.

Probably every shop that changed its production over to CNC has kept a few manual machines, if only for in-house repairs and fixture building. Small lathes and BPs are often faster for second operations on a short parts run than a CNC when you count setup and programming time. Long runs—well, that's why you got CNCs.

HuFlungDung · Mar 13, 2018

I have a mix of manual and cnc machines, have had for many years. I find it can be pretty taxing to keep switching between two different operations unless, for example, the job on the cnc is going to take more than 15 minutes, then, yeah, I've got time to go do something on the manual. But, the job on the manual also needs to be a no- or low- brainer, machining a very simple single feature or two. Otherwise, you'll get involved in the manual job and neglect to reload the cnc right away, because if you do, then you'll come back and fuck up the part on the manual

Generally, I keep busy enough at the cnc verifying parts, or deburring them. Still can be boring, but then, I'll put on my headphones and listen to something. BTW, if you need to keep an ear open, you don't have to cover both ears at the same time. You could come up with a foam wedge to keep one side of the ear ************ from fully seating on your head and it will let in enough sound to hear something.

D Dubeau · Mar 13, 2018

We've got an old Bridgeport (no power feed or readout and pretty well knackered) back in the CNC dept, and it's been very handy. Mind you we don't really run production (except for right now...), but it's super handy for punching holes all the way through plates, and then counter boring/sinking the backside. To do that in the CNC vs manually is 6 of 1, half dozen of another. We'd be just as well served with a drill press to be honest, but the bigger table is nice. Can't remember the last time I put a vise on it, or even cranked the x/y handles. With most drills and cutters all set up and in holders for almost everything else we do it's quicker, easier, and nicer to do in the CNC. I used to flip plates over and do the backside in the CNC, and still do for some (bigger, lots of holes). But if it's only for 5-6 holes on a 12x12 fixture plate, I'll just do it the old fashioned way.

Once in a while I actually enjoy turning handles by hand, but that feeling quickly fades after a couple parts. Unless it's lathe, or grinder work. I'll enjoy it for a bit longer. I loathe manual mill work.

toolsteel · Mar 13, 2018

Jashley73 said:
This idea was prompted from another thread, but it's a common theme.

There's a skilled labor shortage. Shops hire inexperienced people to man CNC equipment running some form of production, offer minimal/scattered training, and things quickly fall into a rut... There's little challenge after long, and the operators get bored & go "idle" between part changes. Management complains that the employees have little drive to learn more & progress.

Has anyone ever toyed with the idea of mixing manual & CNC machines in their shop? I can see several reasons/benefits, such as...

-Gives the employee a different, challenging job to work on in-between the mindless task of swapping parts on the CNC.

-Keeps the employee from going "idle" on their phones/computer.

-Offers a chance to build skills.

So I'm curious, has anyone here actually done this? Is there any benefit to parking a small engine lathe in the CNC milling cell? Or a Bridgeport next to the CNC lathes? And I'm not talking about for manual, post-OP work. Something totally independent of the main CNC jobs. Even if it's just a "here, make this tool for your tool-box so you learn something new" type task.

Thoughts...?

I have seen this at a few shops;.....most often it seems to be in turning cells where a single relatively simple milled/drilled feature is needed. I also worked at a place where we would take parts out of a cnc lathe and put them into a ACHC or one armed bandit for a 2nd op.

SIM · Mar 13, 2018

We have some mixed. Sometimes between cycles we'll run some manual stuff...or between manual stuff we run some CNC stuff.

As was said before...anything brain consuming on the manuals can be asking for trouble.

DMF_TomB · Mar 13, 2018

1) i often do manual machining on a cnc mill using handle mode.also on the fly programming (usually less than 5 minutes programming)to remake a rough sized block from bigger piece i have occasionally done to replace a scrapped part. its rare but has happened
.
2) i occasionally use a lathe to modify tooling, fixtures, etc. a bit of a walk to other side of big building but when needed i do it
.
3) i would think it be great for me to pick machines to put in the shop but its above my pay grade. bosses worry about asset taxes and 5S.
.
4) i setup other parts on other pallets when i have a hour between M0 stops. got a list of tooling to repair if i feel bored which is rare. normally boss wants a operator to run 2 machines if he is bored. thats fairly normal. then operator aint bored. if you use a work log that says exactly at a particular M0 you got 1.1 hours til next M0 to do other stuff that alone is a valuable tool
.
5) also he often have short simple jobs like pressure testing to do when we have time. if pressure testing done alone often outside places want to charge $1000. but when we normally basically do it for free when we got 10 minutes free a few times a shift. that saves a lot

Jashley73 · Mar 13, 2018

Most of the "integrating" that you guys have mentioned so far, has been for 2nd-OP work, where a de-burr or 2nd-OP is done outside the CNC's, and something better suited for a manual machine - IE, a countersink or counterbore on the backside of a part.

I'm not talking about that.

I'm talking about putting a manual in a CNC cell, that is totally un-related to the job being run in the CNC machines.

Again, more of a "here, when you're not loading & inspecting parts, make _this_ part on the manual machine... Something unrelated to the CNC jobs, used to fill the 'operators' idle-time, that will build their skills, and one day make them a 'machinist'... The example where the operator was making a jig/fixture part - that's a good/similar example to what I'm talking about...

Anyone done THAT...?

otrlt · Mar 13, 2018

Jashley73 said:
I'm talking about putting a manual in a CNC cell, that is totally un-related to the job being run in the CNC machine. [/I]

Yes Jashley73, I'm sure allot of shops (including mine) do such a thing. Depending on the cnc's cycle time, this strategy can be very rewarding to all parties evolved.

There is always something that a machinist can make that will improve the production process, like making thread gages, plug gages, fixtures and inspection set-ups. Also don't limit them to machine work only, most of these tools will need to be sketched or if a computer is available, create cad drawings.

Paying for someone to simply load a part and press cycle start is a waist of labor. Eventually, that task will be automated as well.

So instead of paying for an "operator" that is destined to burn-out, You are creating a skilled asset that will compound the overall output of your entire operation.

Myrmidon · Mar 13, 2018

Jashley73 said:
This idea was prompted from another thread, but it's a common theme.

There's a skilled labor shortage. Shops hire inexperienced people to man CNC equipment running some form of production, offer minimal/scattered training, and things quickly fall into a rut... There's little challenge after long, and the operators get bored & go "idle" between part changes. Management complains that the employees have little drive to learn more & progress.

Has anyone ever toyed with the idea of mixing manual & CNC machines in their shop? I can see several reasons/benefits, such as...

-Gives the employee a different, challenging job to work on in-between the mindless task of swapping parts on the CNC.

-Keeps the employee from going "idle" on their phones/computer.

-Offers a chance to build skills.

So I'm curious, has anyone here actually done this? Is there any benefit to parking a small engine lathe in the CNC milling cell? Or a Bridgeport next to the CNC lathes? And I'm not talking about for manual, post-OP work. Something totally independent of the main CNC jobs. Even if it's just a "here, make this tool for your tool-box so you learn something new" type task.

Thoughts...?

I do "here make this just because" side projects all the time, I made all of our jack stands, wedge clamps, all kinds of set up equipment for a shop full of largish horizontal and vertical boring mills. Hop on the bridgeport, grinder, planer/spotter (real old school), and lathes all the time. Even do some welding, fabrication and impromptu heat treating.

I can't see any negatives to learning more skills... I've been doing this for awhile, but by just clearing my mind and trying new stuff I manage to learn something, or learn to think about something differently then I did yesterday.

I am only 30 though, but I'd guess I am one of the few machinists in my age range that has laid out 10 foot diameter bolt circles and shot em in on a radial arm drill, or set up tailstocks/line bores for horizontal borers.

Hard to make money doing that stuff, but I can/have.

mhajicek · Mar 13, 2018

If the alternative is for the guy to be twiddling his thumbs I'd rather have him working on a "government job". At least that way he's getting experience.

otrlt · Mar 13, 2018

Myrmidon said:
Hard to make money doing that stuff, but I can/have.

Very well said Myrmidon,
Your on your way.

mindbent · Mar 14, 2018

I wish there were shops around me like that. The majority of the shops where I live don't want you to walk away from the machine. They hire as cheap as possible and don't teach. The problem with putting someone on a conventional machine is safety. There aren't to many people in my area that know how to use a conventional. The last shop I worked in would put anybody on a conventional lathe or mill and not teach safety because they didn't know how to use it either. I would see someone doing something that's unsafe and try to teach them different and all I got was a go F___ yourself attitude or management would step in and tell me to mind my own business. A girl was almost killed on a Logan engine lathe for the very reasons stated above. I'm willing to bet that she nor management know how close she came to being killed. She was lucky it just busted her arm up when her long coat got caught in the screw. Nobody was allowed to talk about it. I have worked at a shop where I had free reign to do what ever I needed or wanted to do, to far of a drive though. A conventional mill and lathe are very useful in a shop if you know how to use them. Sad part is that there are very few of us left that can go from print to product. Machining is in my opinion not a show up and collect a pay check trade and that's what it's starting to become, at least in southern California. The only thing I like about California is the saltwater fishing.

Zahnrad Kopf · Mar 14, 2018

Jashley73 said:
Most of the "integrating" that you guys have mentioned so far, has been for 2nd-OP work, where a de-burr or 2nd-OP is done outside the CNC's, and something better suited for a manual machine - IE, a countersink or counterbore on the backside of a part.

I'm not talking about that.

I'm talking about putting a manual in a CNC cell, that is totally un-related to the job being run in the CNC machines.

Again, more of a "here, when you're not loading & inspecting parts, make _this_ part on the manual machine... Something unrelated to the CNC jobs, used to fill the 'operators' idle-time, that will build their skills, and one day make them a 'machinist'... The example where the operator was making a jig/fixture part - that's a good/similar example to what I'm talking about...

Anyone done THAT...?

Yep. That is standard operation, here. Of course, we're not a typical shop. Parts running in the Machining Center, Turning Center, and WEDM, and while that's happening I'm usually Hobbing or Shaping Gears, or Surface Grinding, Honing, or manually Milling or Turning something. Could be second op stuff, but just as common ( if not more common ) is unrelated work to what's in the CNCs.

And new employee was advised that this is what is expected, as well. The Gear Making alone is enough to keep someone occupied.

Once we move and have more room, I want to add an apprentice level person and my intent is to make sure they know how to do both.

DMF_TomB · Mar 14, 2018

never had cnc work where i had nothing to do. always something like setting the next job, deburring and removing parts all while operating program requiring to do stuff at M0 like measuring and adjusting and recutting if needed.
.
in my experience cnc require far more skill and experience as most have higher hp, cutting forces and faster feeds and rapids. you obviously dont have to worry about 800 ipm rapids on a manual bridgeport
.
handle mode on a cnc is manual mode. requires more skill and experience cause there is no cutting force feedback on crank/dials with electronic handle pendant. i have seen 2" dia end mills broken before. cnc can easily push many tons.
.
2000 page manual books on operating many cnc's. not sure how anybody thinks that requires less knowledge and skill. many obviously have not been stuck for hour or more trying to get a malfunctioning cnc going again. yes look it up in the 2000 page manual. good luck with that.

TRussell · Mar 14, 2018

DMF_TomB said:
never had cnc work where i had nothing to do. always something like setting the next job, deburring and removing parts all while operating program requiring to do stuff at M0 like measuring and adjusting and recutting if needed.
.
in my experience cnc require far more skill and experience as most have higher hp, cutting forces and faster feeds and rapids. you obviously dont have to worry about 800 ipm rapids on a manual bridgeport
.
handle mode on a cnc is manual mode. requires more skill and experience cause there is no cutting force feedback on crank/dials with electronic handle pendant. i have seen 2" dia end mills broken before. cnc can easily push many tons.
.
2000 page manual books on operating many cnc's. not sure how anybody thinks that requires less knowledge and skill. many obviously have not been stuck for hour or more trying to get a malfunctioning cnc going again. yes look it up in the 2000 page manual. good luck with that.

Do you really believe that the average CNC operator is more skilled than the average manual machinist? Or do you just feel that you don't get the respect you deserve for the work you do?

Jashley73 · Mar 14, 2018

otrlt said:
Yes Jashley73, I'm sure allot of shops (including mine) do such a thing. Depending on the cnc's cycle time, this strategy can be very rewarding to all parties evolved.

Myrmidon said:
I do "here make this just because" side projects all the time, I made all of our jack stands, wedge clamps, all kinds of set up equipment....

Are you guys the owner(s) in your respective shops, or simply employees/machinists?

Not that it matters, but I guess the reason for me posting in the managers/owners section, was to see if any owners had planned their shop's layout, and work-flow/business model to incorporate such a mixed-machinery/mixed-job model - with at least some of the specific reasoning being, the advance of skills & training...

I've pretty much always worked in "print-to-part" type shops, with the exception of my last job which was a production environment. At the last job I was in more of an "engineering" (used loosely) position, but we had plenty of button-pusher operators. Some of them showed some interest & promise, but within the production environment, there was little opportunity for those guys to advance.

Skill Building - Mixing CNC & Manual Machines...?

Titanium

Titanium

otrlt

Guest

Diamond

Titanium

Diamond

Hot Rolled

Titanium

Titanium

Diamond

Titanium

otrlt

Guest

Cast Iron

Diamond

otrlt

Guest

Plastic

Diamond

Diamond

Aluminum

Titanium

Similar threads