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Anyone know shorthand here?

El Mustachio

Hot Rolled
Joined
Jul 28, 2010
Location
Eastern Washington, USA
Alright you old-timers, I know you're out there, I can here your slide-rules clicking and smell your bacon-grease-tapping-oil. Anyone here know shorthand, even long since forgotten? How much torture is it to learn? Pitman, Gregg, Tee-line; any preferences.

Keeping converstaion notes (phone, meetings, etc) has saved my ass time and time again. But either my brain is slowing down or peoples' mouths are going faster than they used to. If I don't correct my notes within a few minutes of a phone call or meeting, I may as well be looking at a china-town take out menu. I'm wondering if picking up a version of shorthand would solve my handwritting / speed problem. I don't expect it would be very simple to learn, but I'm thinking it might prove really useful if I can pick it up self taught.

Thanks in advance.
 
It's been a little over 50 years since I took Greg shorthand in high school. The most important thing I remember is, you don't 'hear' the conversation since you are busy getting it written down. Check into some sort of recording device and write down your notes after hanging up the phone.
 
It's been a little over 50 years since I took Greg shorthand in high school. The most important thing I remember is, you don't 'hear' the conversation since you are busy getting it written down. Check into some sort of recording device and write down your notes after hanging up the phone.

He lives in Washington state, so he would have to begin every conversation by asking the other party if it's OK for him to do that. Otherwise he'll be breaking the law. I wonder if it's the same restriction if he let's a computer microphone pick up the sound and then use a program like Dragon to transcribe it? I would guess that's the same thing, but I'm no expert.
 
In business dealings today you don't need to record anything. The phone is for touching bases and exchanging pleasantries. As soon as a phone discussion gets into anything substantive it needs to end and be continued via email. If they won't write it they don't mean it.
 
In business dealings today you don't need to record anything. The phone is for touching bases and exchanging pleasantries. As soon as a phone discussion gets into anything substantive it needs to end and be continued via email. If they won't write it they don't mean it.

I agree completely. The phone is great for making contact, setting out broad objectives, roughing out ideas, etc. As soon as you get to the details it's time to put it in writing. Has saved my bacon more than once. The informal arrangement we have with most of our customers is that if something discussed in a phone conversation isn't confirmed in writing then the last written communication between us is what stands. Sort of an "opt out" instead of an "opt in" idea...
 
Back to the original question: My friend's late Mum, who was fluent in all the common shorthands and taught them in the local college, reckoned that Tee-line was best for general work.

George
 
It's been a little over 50 years since I took Greg shorthand in high school. The most important thing I remember is, you don't 'hear' the conversation since you are busy getting it written down. Check into some sort of recording device and write down your notes after hanging up the phone.

I don't know a thing about any form of shorthand, but I can definitely see how that would be true.

Years ago, my son played basketball in a church league. The coach asked me if I'd use his camera to video the games so he could review them with the boys as a part of improving the team. I agreed.

What I quickly realized was even though I made sure to follow the action thru the entire game, at the end of a game I couldn't tell you a thing about what had actually gone on in the game.

Didn't really make any difference to me as I've never been much of a basketball fan, but it sure convinced me that you can watch so closely that you see nothing, and I'd believe that can well carry across to listening but not hearing in the case of shorthand.
 
The most important thing I remember is, you don't 'hear' the conversation since you are busy getting it written down.

In conversation it is often the "things not said" that are the most important. You have to be paying very close attention to catch them.
 
In business dealings today you don't need to record anything. The phone is for touching bases and exchanging pleasantries. As soon as a phone discussion gets into anything substantive it needs to end and be continued via email. If they won't write it they don't mean it.

I have a different take on that. People are far more guarded when its written down and real progress in business - negotiations, selling, contentious matters, sharing of info or even secrets, commitments, dispute resolution etc is largely made in person or on the phone.

Nothing is a good as written communication, agreed, but contemporaneous notes are evidence if it comes to that. Since so often the real progress is made offline, its a great idea to be able to improve note taking imo
 
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Yes, pay more attention to the conversation than to notetaking.

Dragon won't do what you need on an "automatic" basis. It's speaker-dependent voice recognition, and sensitive to mic quality. Won't do much for the other end of the convo.

In your situation, I would inform the other party of recording, have it transcribed, and share it with them when done. (The sharing with all parties when done will take the "sting" out of being recorded, and over time will be appreciated.)

The remote service I use is $1.40 a minute, with overnite service and automated in/out. Meaning you upload the file, and the next morning you get the transcript. The people who actually type it up probably get a buck a minute, or slightly less. If you find someone local who will do your work in a timely manner for that price, the benefit is that it will become more accurate as they learn your vocab. Plus, you'll know who knows your business.

The internet upload/download folks will have transcribers scattered across the globe, with no real supervision of the confidentiality aspect. It's up to you whether this means a little or a lot to your process.

There are online-based "while you talk" services that are pricier, but more immediate. In all cases, make sure you review against your recording to catch mistakes. Not everyone doing the work is going to be well-educated and fluent in your vocab.... like "It should be fine if we take another thou off the top." You and your customer will understand what a thou is, but not the transcriber, and definitely not Dragon.

Apple speech recognition (in phones and computers) is speaker independent, and the recognition takes place back at their servers, so it is quite fast and accurate. You have to jump thru hoops to get it to do an electronic file, and its base offering has a 30-second or so timer on input.

Also, with all automatic transcription offerings, you have to speak the punctuation you desire. Kind of a show-stopper in a two-party conversation.

But, they excel at weird vocabulary, like medical transcription. The more technical the vocab, the less chance that it could be any other word than the right one.

You could always just record it, and don't tell anyone. Including us.

Chip
 
um, no. People are far more guarded when its written down and real progress in business - negotiations, selling, contentious matters, sharing of info or even secrets, commitments, dispute resolution etc is largely made in person or on the phone.

Nothing is a good as written communication, agreed, but contemporaneous notes are evidence if it comes to that. Since so often the real progress is made offline, its a great idea to be able to improve note taking imo

I side with the "if it's not in writing, it didn't happen" team on this. Generalizations and progress can be made over the phone, but when it comes to me allocating resources to a customer's project, particularly regarding technical information, everything must be put in writing before I am going to act on it. Obviously there are some old-timey customers that my company has been working with for 50 years, and there are some things we just do for each other, but those days are over for the most part.

It is just good business practice to have all the dealings that lead to money exchanging hands in writing, for record keeping. The written documents and notes being evidence are exactly why they need to be taken, and retained, in the case of a dispute.
 
Back to the original question: My friend's late Mum, who was fluent in all the common shorthands and taught them in the local college, reckoned that Tee-line was best for general work.

George

That's right in line with what I've been thinking. Thanks, I'll look closer at Tee-line.

I'm thankful for all the input. Regarding recording and active listener methods, those are always great ideas. I can see that the assumption is I'm talking about legal issues or work order specs. Those definitely come up, but my problem is less those and more trying to help customers with service questions on our products.

We make mobile ag equipment, we have one location but our customers are strewn throughout the country. Our rigs are fairly customized to the customers' needs. It's unusual for two to be alike. Once out in the field they're manhandled by at half a dozed different characters; owners, multiple drivers, and "mechanics".

My biggest headache when Joe Dirt from the-middle-of-nowhwere calls in because he can't run his new rig (fully tested before delivery) is that I always seem to get the "Who's on first? Hu's on first" routine. Just spent two months playing phone tag with one customer who changed his story of what was wrong every time we got back on the phone. With the right notes, it's alot easier to hold their hand, calm them down, and tease out of them what's really going on. In this case we realized, through my notes, that when on the phone their mechanic would interchange the words "pump" and "motor" throughout the conversation. That's a bid deal, especially when you want me to airfreight a new pump to you. In the end, someone there had swapped 2 wires on a terminal block. Got the wiring fixed and they're off and running.

Unfortunately that story is not unusual. Recording and active listening are great, but when you're comparing notes trying to decide what to do next for a pissed of customer, nothing beats paper.
 
Years back an attorney told me that verbal contracts weren't worth the paper they were written on. People can remember a conversation differently and also lie about them. In that case it is one person's word against another's.

Even with written notes it can be claimed that words were misheard or misunderstood although they are better than memory only. One way to take better notes is to ask the party to repeat or clarify a point when needed to gain more writing time. I don't write shorthand but I use a sort of outline form where only important highlights get written down when taking notes and abbreviations are used as much as possible. Main thing is to slow the other party down as needed on important points. If asked, I always say "Yes, I am taking notes".

Edit: I just read your last post after replying. In your case it should be very easy to say that you are taking notes to better help them and ask them to repeat as necessary.
 
It is just good business practice to have all the dealings that lead to money exchanging hands in writing, for record keeping. The written documents and notes being evidence are exactly why they need to be taken, and retained, in the case of a dispute.

Sure it is, but the world is far from perfect. I'll agree if they can be, they should be. How do you deal with all the rest, the sensitive and important stuff? You going leave a first meeting with say some president of a business you might acquire and expect and email on it? Take this is a rule: People will not say as much in writing as they will verbally and it would be extremely foolish to ignore the info in between the two - that's the gold! As no memory is perfect, note taking is the only to capture the gold.

I mean if you talking something really pedestrian like what is our company's standard tolerances or policies on late delivery or how many widgets they're ordering...., fine, its easy to see it has to be in writing and easy to get in writing. But if you're in more important and less clear cut discussions like I listed, things don't get into writing often until several rounds have passed and maybe never. Meanwhile the ability to have total recall can be huge...and should it come to it, as I said, contemporaneous notes are evidence.

I don't think it to hard imagine a situation where better note wouldn't be advantageous
 
Years back an attorney told me that verbal contracts weren't worth the paper they were written on. People can remember a conversation differently and also lie about them. In that case it is one person's word against another's.

Even with written notes it can be claimed that words were misheard or misunderstood although they are better than memory only. One way to take better notes is to ask the party to repeat or clarify a point when needed to gain more writing time. I don't write shorthand but I use a sort of outline form where only important highlights get written down when taking notes and abbreviations are used as much as possible. Main thing is to slow the other party down as needed on important points. If asked, I always say "Yes, I am taking notes".

Edit: I just read your last post after replying. In your case it should be very easy to say that you are taking notes to better help them and ask them to repeat as necessary.

Years back an attorney told me that verbal contracts weren't worth the paper they were written on. People can remember a conversation differently and also lie about them. In that case it is one person's word against another's.

call that attorney up and ask him again....two parties to a dispute, agreement was mostly verbal. One has excellent contemporaneous notes one does not.....who wins? The notes are evidence, someone's recollection is not. I've been in situations where simply having that evidence helps keep things from going downhill in that it supports your position (claim)

however its red herring in the sense that most things happens somewhere between not having a clue and winning in court. You have good records on the meetings of a 6 month long negotiation as the final deals being papered you're in far better position than not having them.

I try to take notes, not as good as I'd like though. I thought short hand was antiquated....but the thread made me rethink that....probably not enough to learn it though :)
 
We make mobile ag equipment, we have one location but our customers are strewn throughout the country. Our rigs are fairly customized to the customers' needs. It's unusual for two to be alike. Once out in the field they're manhandled by at half a dozed different characters; owners, multiple drivers, and "mechanics".

My biggest headache when Joe Dirt from the-middle-of-nowhwere calls in because he can't run his new rig (fully tested before delivery) is that I always seem to get the "Who's on first? Hu's on first" routine. Just spent two months playing phone tag with one customer who changed his story of what was wrong every time we got back on the phone. With the right notes, it's alot easier to hold their hand, calm them down, and tease out of them what's really going on. In this case we realized, through my notes, that when on the phone their mechanic would interchange the words "pump" and "motor" throughout the conversation. That's a bid deal, especially when you want me to airfreight a new pump to you. In the end, someone there had swapped 2 wires on a terminal block. Got the wiring fixed and they're off and running.

Unfortunately that story is not unusual. Recording and active listening are great, but when you're comparing notes trying to decide what to do next for a pissed of customer, nothing beats paper.

This same situation can exist for any supplier that sells equipment and then needs to follow up with customers due to some performance or operation issue. In my experience, it is critical to make sure that the communications are clear, and the parties on the phone are talking apples and apples. When I was in a position of managing field installation and service personnel in semiconductor equipment supply, we had a number of situations with customers in Asia and Europe, and the US, in which there was a problem. Often, the biggest issue with resolution was making sure we had the RIGHT details of the problem, then it was easily solved. With customers on the phone, the key is making sure everyone sees the problem the same way, and that the same words are being used by all parties to describe the issues, as you note. Notes that reflect the truth are very helpful, but getting everyone on the same page language-wise is absolutely key to solution.

BTW, I have the same issue with real-time note-taking. If I don't immediately review and clarify my henscratching when the call is over, I'm doomed.
 
Sure it is, but the world is far from perfect. I'll agree if they can be, they should be. How do you deal with all the rest, the sensitive and important stuff? You going leave a first meeting with say some president of a business you might acquire and expect and email on it? Take this is a rule: People will not say as much in writing as they will verbally and it would be extremely foolish to ignore the info in between the two - that's the gold! As no memory is perfect, note taking is the only to capture the gold.

I mean if you talking something really pedestrian like what is our company's standard tolerances or policies on late delivery or how many widgets they're ordering...., fine, its easy to see it has to be in writing and easy to get in writing. But if you're in more important and less clear cut discussions like I listed, things don't get into writing often until several rounds have passed and maybe never. Meanwhile the ability to have total recall can be huge...and should it come to it, as I said, contemporaneous notes are evidence.

I don't think it to hard imagine a situation where better note wouldn't be advantageous

I agree, accurate note taking is required, I am not arguing against it, they teach about it in engineering classes - even your handwritten notes, when properly maintained, have substantial legal weight, equal to that of printed, controlled documents. If you have a series of notebooks with consistent notes with no pages torn out, dates and signatures where appropriate, they are held to a much higher standard than an odd collection of scribbles on the backs of dirty prints and scrap paper.

In my business, which was in the past primarily a foundry, customers would order castings over the phone all the time, as there was no email. A result of that was, castings were made incorrectly all the damn time, and even though there were notes taken during the conversation, they are all chicken scratched as many people in this thread have pointed out is common to happen during frantic note taking.
Yes, it is important to take into account all the information that is said in meetings, and to notate all the correspondence during said meeting would be counter-productive as you would probably not be able to both comprehend the ideas being tossed around a the same time as making clear, concise notes. But that is why note-taking is a skill, just like others that need to be developed and maintained, and is exactly the point of this whole thread!

So at the end of the day, when parts get returned for being wrong, but my paperwork says otherwise, tough nuts buddy; the parts are made to specification according to the documents you provided me at the time of purchase, no subsequent documents were received indicating a change order.
An offhand phone call or conversation is not sufficient for placing a change order to a job in progress, or to specify any sort of quantitative technical document.
It is hard to get customers to abide by the rules, but that's the game we play, I always approach the customer with the requirement for documentation from the standpoint of "quality, low cost, and timely delivery" and it softens the pencil-pusher abrasiveness.

Anyone ever had a payment for a job delayed because your invoice didn't match their PO dollar amount, even though your invoiced amount is lower than their PO? It's that kind of crap that springs up unnecessarily when professional communication is not adhered to. It seems trivial, but those errors and hold ups stack up.
 
For those of you who really believe the notes you took of a conversation constitute a binding agreement, all I can say is good luck with that. You are naively assuming the other party won't show up in court with his own extensive "notes" which just happen to contradict yours.

A deal memo summarizing a conversation and sent immediately afterward to the other party can serve as a good reinforcement of your position, but only to the extent that your summary remains uncontested. It still has to be signed off on. I have seen deal memos absolutely gutted via reply. I may be somewhat misanthropic but people tend to hear what they want to hear.
 
hello
well no slide rule
but the smell of black thread cutting oil
gives me flashbacks
went out with a girl
who did shorthand
don't know what kind
looked like hieroglyphics to me
but she had been doin it for 40 years
my thought
take your notes at your speed
slow or not
in something you understand
shorthand just like shop
took you how long to get as good as you are at shop
same thing with shorthand
then a email or 3
before you start
get everyones ok
proceed with what you do well
leave no loose noose
it might take a lil longer
but parts will be made their way
and you can prove it
my 2 cents on this topic
have a good day
 








 
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