Appraising Fair Market Value of CNC Machines
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  1. #1
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    Default Appraising Fair Market Value of CNC Machines

    Hi,

    Looking for suggestions or recommendations on the best way to asses the fair market value of CNC lathes and mills. Trying to assess the value of a shops equipment as part of a potential purchase. Equipment is 2003 to 2014 and a combination of Mori Seiki, Okuma and Mazak. Is there a source that you would recommend that could provide a reasonably accurate valuation based on year, make, model number and general condition? Most information through what I would call public sources is sketchy and most don't publish prices. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

    Thanks
    JA

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    look at the new price of the machine, then try and find something for sale that's close, ebay is about as general public as you can get. then figure the asking price on ebay and take 80 percent of the value as what it sells for. no look at your machine again and see if there are better options than the one selling, add or subtract a fudge factor if necessary.

    argue with the guy who actually owns them about what they are worth to you. come to an agreement. other than that, its about all you can hope for in terms of fair market value.

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    its like how long is a pieces of string, you can get any answer you want. What does 'worth' mean? What do you need the valuation for - piece of mind, negotiations or financing?

    you could send the list to a used equipment and ask how much he'll give you for it, one view of worth. You could look at new and discount, another sort of BS view of worth.

    You can have it appraised, but the appraisers often don't have a clue or least can be coached into giving the answer you want. I once had an accredited appraiser, coached to come in high, list the liquidation value of some pieces for more than paid for them new!

    Its just not a exact thing, the about the only real way to value something (despite the concoctions in appraisals of the income method, residual value etc) is to look at comparable sales. Except for ebay which is sketchy, there is no database of comparable sales the appraiser can access, so its stick the figure in the wind time.

    You must use a bank approved of accredited appraiser if used for financing, really though, its a racket.
    Last edited by Mcgyver; 07-05-2014 at 10:51 AM.

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    How many times were each crashed

    What its worth to the owner, and that its worth to the person looking at buying is usually 2 very different things. Ain't unusual to have to cut 25-50% off what the owner thinks its worth...

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    There are a couple Craigslist listings for CNC machines in the Columbus Ohio area, with prices. I know these machines were making mil-spec parts less than a year ago, in their present location. You'd have to look at the controllers and general information to make a comparison, but to my eye, they were used, but not used up. (Was there to buy something much cheaper.) They've been listed for a little while, so prices have been adjusted. So depending on your comparison details, you can check them out.

    Chip

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    Being clear up in Alberta, I don't know if you would have a big auctioneer that specializes in that type or not?
    If you have mostly oil field equipment - then ours down here could be off a bit?

    But I wonder if you could take many pics and walk around vids and send to some of the appraiser type down here and get a number? (for a fee of course)

    Myron Bowling, Thompson, and CIA (Cincinnati Industrial Auctioneers) are the top 3 that I would recommend.
    I had to have an appraisal back during the Great Recession and the local auction house was sent out.
    If I ever have to have them doo anything again - I will just close the doors!
    They had no clue what they were lookin' at. No idea the difference between an 8x lathe and 2x. No idea what a transfer machine is, but it's not a newer commodity Haas.

    Can't blame them, but they are NOT the ones to be tasked with selling or appraising such equipment. If I had time, there is much $ to be made by following them around at commercial auctions - that's for sure!

    The issue of appraisal came up recently, and we both (me and Mamma) both told them that the only way another outfit is coming in our door to appraise anything - it will be one of the 3 listed above - someone that specializes in such every day and knows the difference between a shaper and a CMM. The difference between something replaceable new for $60k and $450K (2x and 8x lathe) or what an CNC transfer machine looks like.



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    Alberta Bound!
    Ox

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    Quote Originally Posted by JA1099 View Post
    Looking for suggestions or recommendations on the best way to asses the fair market value of CNC lathes and mills.
    I have a feeling most answers you are going to find will look something like this:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails ten-dollars.jpg  

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    Thank you all for the responses. Pretty much what I thought but figured I would post the question to see if my speculation was correct. Like most things value is in the eye of the beholder - high for seller, low for buyer. Is there any place on the web where list prices for new machines are provided? I came across a HAAS document that listed there units and the list prices. Has anyone seen anything similar for Mori, Mazak or Okuma?

    Thx again for your responses.

    JA

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    Some machine dealers have used machine prices listed some don't. A machine sales guy might give you an idea of what they would give you on trade in.

    If it's old worn out machines you'll get about $200 a ton at the scrap yard down here. We have a pile of femco turning center that will either get scrapped or sold for double scrap price to some one that wants head aches.

    Haas has a build and price on their web site but I don't think anyone else does. I believe Okuma lists base prices on their site for some machines.

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    Out of curiosity I looked up the credentials of a local machine tool appraiser I know. When he's at auctions he keeps track of selling prices. That collected sales information must go to some data bank for access by other appraisers.

    "I became an Accredited appraiser with the Association of Machinery and Equipment Appraisers Association (AMEA) in 1982. In September of 1994 I successfully completed the AMEA level II exam and became a Certified Machinery & Equipment appraiser (CEA). At the present time I am a candidate for a specialist rating in Machinery and Equipment (M & E_ to the American Society of Appraisers, (ASA) Seattle chapter. In addition, I was inducted into the Equipment Appraisers Association of America in December 1999 located in Pittsburgh, PA and have attained the rating of Certified Senior Appraiser (CSA).

    .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..........................

    I am on the approved list of appraisers for the BlackRock Appraisal Ltd., Bank of America, Cascade Bank of Washington, US Bank, Wells Fargo Bank, Machine Tool Finance and GE Captital Credit Corporation, formerly Safeco Credit. "

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    What's it worth?

    Tough call. I have an older 2X CNC lathe we use for single ops. Works perfect for my application and very dependable. If I had to replace it would be with a late model something in the 30+K range just cause I don't want old junk headaches. I already tweaked the headaches out of my old junk, programs installed and tweaked to perfection...making it a valuable piece of equipment for me.

    So what the machine worth to me...30K plus rigging in and out, then tooling to fit my application if not setup the way I like plus an electrician and tech to commission ,if need be, the disruption to business moving one in and one out and the learning curve of a new machine.

    A machine perfect for a job in location is worth more then the same one in a catalog....unless you go to sell it.

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    my rule of thumb

    Find a comparable machine for sale by a dealer. Divide their asking price by 2. That's usually about what it's worth

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    I am always amused at the dislike of machine dealers. Of course the same people want dealer prices when they sell their personal machines but 1/2 dealer prices when they want to buy someone else's machines.

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    Machinery dealers, grrrrr.

    Why is it that you go to a car lot and cars have prices on them. You go the grocery store, groceries have prices on them.

    You look at machinery and almost all of them have a "request for quote" and no price.

    When I bought my last cnc it came from craigslist and there was a price in the ad. Just saying.

    Big B

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    Some dealers put prices and some don't. The ones that don't do so because everyone else uses their numbers when buying and selling. As a dealer it is often a tough line to walk. I will tell you this, as a dealer, I see people go to auctions and pay a lot more for items than they can buy it for from me. At auctions they think that they are getting a better price. They forget that they often need a insured rigger and also pay a buyers premium. Everyone is just trying to make a living. People should not be so harsh on each other.

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    Maybe if dealers put prices on their machines, customers would buy from them instead of from auctions. And I have seen some dealers put prices on their machines. Probably about 1% of them.

    Big B

    Quote Originally Posted by MARK07747 View Post
    Some dealers put prices and some don't. The ones that don't do so because everyone else uses their numbers when buying and selling. As a dealer it is often a tough line to walk. I will tell you this, as a dealer, I see people go to auctions and pay a lot more for items than they can buy it for from me. At auctions they think that they are getting a better price. They forget that they often need a insured rigger and also pay a buyers premium. Everyone is just trying to make a living. People should not be so harsh on each other.

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    I don't know why you are of such disslike to a dealer?

    You could go to a Myron Bowling auction and pay a little more than dealer price and be as-is where-is.


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    Ox


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