I ask because we have an exceptional foreman that works all the time, has the most men, and takes in the most work. In doing so, I believe now he's got too much to be effective at what we pay him to do and that's supervise his guys. We've created this monster I suppose and now I'm thinking we need to re-evaluate our current system. We're a job shop in the truest sense. No two jobs come in the door alike. We have three machine shop foreman that take care of about 30 machinist. Is this about the norm for you guys?
Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
Largest Manufacturing Technology Community on the Web
Stay Connected:
On average, how many men is each foreman responsible for in your shop?
- Thread starter cranny
- Start date
- Replies 25
- Views 10,942
A lot of it depends on their responsibilities and the amount of attention your individual employees require. We like to have supervisors with no more than 20 direct reports each. Unfortunately right now, due to the economy, through attrition we have not rehired in that area, and we have some supervisors responsible for 50+ employees, including myself. That's miserable, and means a lot of the "little things" get skipped. I've supervised crews from 10 to 50, in single departments and across shifts and the entire plant, and my personal opinion is that to be effective 20 is the max given they all work in the same departments or disciplines, and 10-15 is about the max for cross departmental or cross shift mixes.
Our formen act as both a supervisor for their men as well as take in jobs. This is where the conflict lies. This particular foreman is always at the shop so he get's the lion share of jobs called in or off the street. We also have roughly 10 people in sales that bring in work from various customers. It's only natural for this foreman to want to take care of his customers first before getting to other salesmen jobs. Add on top that we are as busy as we can be so now our problem isn't getting work in, rather, it's getting it out in a timely fashion. I've noticed lately this foreman has broke out his tool box and has been doing a lot of work himself due to being backed up. While it looks impressive at first glance, it's really not. He can't manage his guys if he's busy running a machine.
toolsteel
Titanium
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2012
- Location
- NW Wisconsin (BFE)
In our shop it varies....we have areas where we are making the same part as we did 10 years ago, in many cases by the same people. These areas need little supervision and 1 supervisor can handle 30 or 40 ppl. Provided not everyone comes in looking for a fight on the same day lol. Another area does one-offs only. This area requires alot more supervision, some of the jobs require customer contact for engineering clarification etc....we want a management type making those contacts...these areas also have machinists with much higher skills....anyone who has been in the trade long enough realizes that a persons pain in the ass factor is directly related to his skill level...if not he usually gets fired. These areas require much higher supervision levels
While I respect supervisors who will step away from the computer and hit a machine to pick up the slack, I do agree with this completely.
I cannot imagine the company structure that has 10 people in "sales" and yet the shop foreman takes in work.
This is mostly attributed to customers that call in to the shop wanting their sales guy. When he's not there because of being out on the road, they quickly learn the particular foreman I'm talking about is always there. Over time, more and more of our customers figure out the hell with Joe Salesman; I can just call or swing by and always get this guy.
I'm not saying this is how it should be done. Rather, this is what it has manifested into. Again, 90% of our work is catering to large industry that wants their parts and/or assemblies repaired or modified; not manufactured. We're like an emergency room for big industry and most all want it yesterday. This guy gets it done no matter what. He's usually pulling 70-80hrs. every week. He's definitely a hard worker but I believe he's becoming more and more ineffective by being strung out too thin.
While I'm painting this picture of a smart and hard worker, he is also incredibly immature and does not handle constructive criticism good at all. I'm not looking forward to curtailing him back a little but it's gotten to the point I must.
Heavey Metal
Banned
- Joined
- May 10, 2011
- Location
- Texas
If I understand correctly this dude has it going on and you and the salesmen are jealous.
Get him a secretary and an administrative assistant and make some money of him.
Quit trying to stifle folks drive.
Get him a secretary and an administrative assistant and make some money of him.
Quit trying to stifle folks drive.
Thanks for that insightful reply. What was I thinking? So what if he's too busy running a machine to get his guys all the information they need in order to do a job; e.g. drawings, tolerances, customer name and job number. They should just wait around until he can find time to spoon feed them the next bit of information they need to keep going. Never mind our big customers that spend well over 100K/year with us at big plants. Let's just keep working on Billy Bobs bush hog or some small time company that spends about 20K/year keeping us busy with cutting key ways and shortening locating shoulders. Yeah, let him work his ass off spinning his wheels while most of his guys are waiting on pertinent information.
Well, I hear what you're saying, but maybe what you need is a plant manager. He's got the experience, expertise, and know-how on the operations side of things to be the "go to" guy for outside sales, so utilize that. Find or develop a new foreman, or at the very least a lead man to take the day to day work shuffling off of him?
AndyF
Stainless
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2003
- Location
- Phelps, NY, USA
The strictest plant in terms of organization I worked in had a maximum of 7 people for each assistant foreman. The assistant foreman was a working foreman. There would be 2-4 assistant foreman for each foreman. The foreman wasn't supposed to be on the line working, instead his job was to ensure that everything ran smoothly. Both the assistant foremen and foremen were in the union. Area Supervisors, who were salaried, had 3-5 foremen working under them. The supervisors worked with engineering and sales and accounting to take care of all the paperwork and managed crewing and the schedule on the floor. The Supervisors reported to one of two production managers - one in assembly and one in fabrication/welding and the two production managers reported to a VP of Manufacturing.
Other companies have been looser or less organized, but it seems that a working foreman can generally handle up to 10 people, any more than that and the foreman ends up spending their shift facilitating, mediating, negotiating, expediting and training, not working on a machine.
Other companies have been looser or less organized, but it seems that a working foreman can generally handle up to 10 people, any more than that and the foreman ends up spending their shift facilitating, mediating, negotiating, expediting and training, not working on a machine.
Jashley73
Titanium
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2013
- Location
- Louisville, KY
I'm no owner of manager, but if I were in his shoes...
It sounds like you two need to have a sit-down talk. If he is as effective as you say he is, I say invest more into this guy, but be up front about what you expect to get in return. This would include some proper leadership training, some management appropriate clothing/uniforms, and of course a significant raise. This would also be the time to iron out any conflicts with work scheduling - that while him brining in work is no doubt valuable, the larger, more profitable jobs/customers cannot be put aside for small jobs.
Heavey Metal
Banned
- Joined
- May 10, 2011
- Location
- Texas
Did I hit a nerve?
Cranny,
"So what if he's too busy running a machine to get his guys all the information they need in order to do a job; e.g. drawings, tolerances, customer name and job number. They should just wait around until he can find time to spoon feed them the next bit of information they need to keep going."
I have been out of machine shops for over 25 yea. MY bosses had over a 100 people to supervise. We had what we called "clerks" who carried clipboards and drawings for new jobs. The Boss did not do that.
Hell, half the time, the Boss had no experience in that part of the process. For SURE, no Boss would ever be allowed to touch a machine, even if he had 20 yrs. experience on them.
I WAS UNION. 13 thou employees in the plant.
Bosses are just that, Bosses. They are good at paperwork. I have had bosses that were dumb as posts at what we were actually DOING, but they could bullshit pretty good. I had one Boss who actually cried when he was passed over for General Foreman. "Why?" Answer was, he always has an answer, you say you have to look into it
He was a pretty good HBM Op, spent most of his time on an Ingersoll 14 foot vertical travel. It was really all he knew.
Some of you, I know, are actual Machinists, and you know how stuff works, I would bet that a lot of posters are low cost "injuneers" who are asking questions such as this thread started with.
Bed time.
George
"So what if he's too busy running a machine to get his guys all the information they need in order to do a job; e.g. drawings, tolerances, customer name and job number. They should just wait around until he can find time to spoon feed them the next bit of information they need to keep going."
I have been out of machine shops for over 25 yea. MY bosses had over a 100 people to supervise. We had what we called "clerks" who carried clipboards and drawings for new jobs. The Boss did not do that.
Hell, half the time, the Boss had no experience in that part of the process. For SURE, no Boss would ever be allowed to touch a machine, even if he had 20 yrs. experience on them.
I WAS UNION. 13 thou employees in the plant.
Bosses are just that, Bosses. They are good at paperwork. I have had bosses that were dumb as posts at what we were actually DOING, but they could bullshit pretty good. I had one Boss who actually cried when he was passed over for General Foreman. "Why?" Answer was, he always has an answer, you say you have to look into it
He was a pretty good HBM Op, spent most of his time on an Ingersoll 14 foot vertical travel. It was really all he knew.
Some of you, I know, are actual Machinists, and you know how stuff works, I would bet that a lot of posters are low cost "injuneers" who are asking questions such as this thread started with.
Bed time.
George
metlmunchr
Diamond
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2004
- Location
- Asheville NC USA
Comments within this thread advising you to encourage this guy's behavior are insane, to put it kindly. Its a rare bird who can get anything done with any sort of efficiency by spending 70-80 hrs/week on the job, yet there's a common tendency to blindly classify such people as hard working heroes without whom the business would fall on its face. I think you're well aware that's not the case at all, and that such people can become more of a headache than an asset over time.
This man has a primary job of pushing work thru the shop as efficiently as possible. Obviously, he's not doing that. But, by giving him the ability to also take in work, the company has given him an excuse to not focus on the primary responsibility. Customers are taking advantage of his desire to please everyone, and the company is partly at fault for this too, in that you're allowing too much public access to people whose sole job should be to get the work out the door.
This isn't a machine shop issue. Its a basic business issue, and things that work in a 1 or 2 man business simply don't work in a business with what sounds like 50 or more employees. With 10 sales people out beating the weeds for work, there's no reason whatsoever to have your foremen selling work too. There's one simple goal that should always remain at the top of the list of priorities, and that's getting the work out the door as efficiently as possible. That's the only thing that generates money, and in a business that's all that really counts.
I'd add an inside sales person who'd be there all the time to take care of call ins and walk ins, and I'd stop all foremen from functioning as salesmen. This gets rid of the conflict of interest arising from a foreman taking in a job, promising delivery, and then possibly pushing other work back to make good on his own promise. It also relieves the foreman from spending what sounds like a lot of his time interacting with customers, and neglecting his primary duty in the process.
I'd also add a work planner whose job is to schedule based on an overall view of work on hand, and who would also be the sales force's contact for promised deliveries. This relieves the foremen from having to juggle schedules and talk with salesmen about how hot one job or another happens to be. Once again, it allows the foreman to concentrate on one thing, which is getting the work out the door. The work should go from the planner to the foreman as a job package with any necessary drawings and/or instructions, and with notes indicating whether material is in stock, or on order with an expected delivery date. Juggling jobs based on material deliveries becomes the duty of the planner, so this is one more distraction removed from the job of the foremen.
If this foreman is bringing in more work than any of the current outside salesmen, there should be no problem in justifying an inside salesman. In shops of significant size, a planner/scheduler with an overall view of all work logged or in progress is just a necessity that can't be avoided. Having half a dozen different people setting work priorities is a sure recipe for having the shop operating like a Chinese fire drill. When a shop is doing repairs, modifications, and one-off parts, a foreman will have a full time job in keeping 10 men headed in the right direction even without the distractions of playing salesman, planner, drawing chaser, stock chaser, or any other jobs they may be doing now.
This should leave each foreman with plenty of time to review each day's work, have the saw man cut any necessary stock in advance, and keep the machinists moving smoothly from one job to the next with minimal delay. The foremen would also have time to provide job time feedback to the planner. Personally, I'd avoid the normal tendency to place an experienced machinist in a planning position that's essentially a clerical type job. The planner needs job time input, and the ability to produce work schedules. In my own experience, women are better at this type job than men are. If you end up getting 20 additional minutes per day of productive time from each of 30 machinists, the cost of your planner is covered and anything more is gravy.
Unfortunately, I'd lay odds your problem foreman likes the way things are now and likes the degree of control he's able to exert over multiple facets of the shop. In working with and managing people and jobs for 40 yrs, I've found its pretty simple to assess a person's technical ability, but it takes a lot more effort to figure out how their heads work. I've encountered a few over the years who have an overwhelming desire to put their hands in multiple aspects of the business at the expense of doing their best at what they were hired to do. I'd guess you can expect quite a bit of resistance when you begin to clip his wings and focus him on his primary responsibilities.
This man has a primary job of pushing work thru the shop as efficiently as possible. Obviously, he's not doing that. But, by giving him the ability to also take in work, the company has given him an excuse to not focus on the primary responsibility. Customers are taking advantage of his desire to please everyone, and the company is partly at fault for this too, in that you're allowing too much public access to people whose sole job should be to get the work out the door.
This isn't a machine shop issue. Its a basic business issue, and things that work in a 1 or 2 man business simply don't work in a business with what sounds like 50 or more employees. With 10 sales people out beating the weeds for work, there's no reason whatsoever to have your foremen selling work too. There's one simple goal that should always remain at the top of the list of priorities, and that's getting the work out the door as efficiently as possible. That's the only thing that generates money, and in a business that's all that really counts.
I'd add an inside sales person who'd be there all the time to take care of call ins and walk ins, and I'd stop all foremen from functioning as salesmen. This gets rid of the conflict of interest arising from a foreman taking in a job, promising delivery, and then possibly pushing other work back to make good on his own promise. It also relieves the foreman from spending what sounds like a lot of his time interacting with customers, and neglecting his primary duty in the process.
I'd also add a work planner whose job is to schedule based on an overall view of work on hand, and who would also be the sales force's contact for promised deliveries. This relieves the foremen from having to juggle schedules and talk with salesmen about how hot one job or another happens to be. Once again, it allows the foreman to concentrate on one thing, which is getting the work out the door. The work should go from the planner to the foreman as a job package with any necessary drawings and/or instructions, and with notes indicating whether material is in stock, or on order with an expected delivery date. Juggling jobs based on material deliveries becomes the duty of the planner, so this is one more distraction removed from the job of the foremen.
If this foreman is bringing in more work than any of the current outside salesmen, there should be no problem in justifying an inside salesman. In shops of significant size, a planner/scheduler with an overall view of all work logged or in progress is just a necessity that can't be avoided. Having half a dozen different people setting work priorities is a sure recipe for having the shop operating like a Chinese fire drill. When a shop is doing repairs, modifications, and one-off parts, a foreman will have a full time job in keeping 10 men headed in the right direction even without the distractions of playing salesman, planner, drawing chaser, stock chaser, or any other jobs they may be doing now.
This should leave each foreman with plenty of time to review each day's work, have the saw man cut any necessary stock in advance, and keep the machinists moving smoothly from one job to the next with minimal delay. The foremen would also have time to provide job time feedback to the planner. Personally, I'd avoid the normal tendency to place an experienced machinist in a planning position that's essentially a clerical type job. The planner needs job time input, and the ability to produce work schedules. In my own experience, women are better at this type job than men are. If you end up getting 20 additional minutes per day of productive time from each of 30 machinists, the cost of your planner is covered and anything more is gravy.
Unfortunately, I'd lay odds your problem foreman likes the way things are now and likes the degree of control he's able to exert over multiple facets of the shop. In working with and managing people and jobs for 40 yrs, I've found its pretty simple to assess a person's technical ability, but it takes a lot more effort to figure out how their heads work. I've encountered a few over the years who have an overwhelming desire to put their hands in multiple aspects of the business at the expense of doing their best at what they were hired to do. I'd guess you can expect quite a bit of resistance when you begin to clip his wings and focus him on his primary responsibilities.
Dave K
Diamond
- Joined
- Mar 21, 2004
- Location
- Waukesha, WI
Ok, so you have 3 foremen that take care of 30 guys. So, is that 10 guys each foreman, or are all foremen responsible for all 30 guys?
Doesn't sound too bad if it's only 10 guys per foreman. It all depends on what these foremen are responsible for, I guess. You could have a sit down with them and ask them of they're ever overwhelmed with their tasks. That works if you assume you'll get an honest answer from them.
Some guys are good at it and some guys aren't. I know for a fact, I couldn't do it. Ever have so much to do you don't even know where to start? Ever work all day, running like a chicken with its head cut off, and have nothing to show for it at the end of the day? That's what would happen to me if I were in their shoes.
I suppose the best thing would be to work along side these guys, ( or the one you're concerned about) and see what his entire day entails, then make a decision based on what you see?
Doesn't sound too bad if it's only 10 guys per foreman. It all depends on what these foremen are responsible for, I guess. You could have a sit down with them and ask them of they're ever overwhelmed with their tasks. That works if you assume you'll get an honest answer from them.
Some guys are good at it and some guys aren't. I know for a fact, I couldn't do it. Ever have so much to do you don't even know where to start? Ever work all day, running like a chicken with its head cut off, and have nothing to show for it at the end of the day? That's what would happen to me if I were in their shoes.
I suppose the best thing would be to work along side these guys, ( or the one you're concerned about) and see what his entire day entails, then make a decision based on what you see?
HiNi
Cast Iron
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2010
- Location
- Southeast, USA
My friend, you hit the nail on the head. I realize I've only given you a brief overview of the problem but I really like your approach. I have been with the company going on 29yrs. and have been the GM for the last 3. I have two owners that acknowledge the problem but overtime they have turned a blind eye to it because, in their minds, no one else is willing to burn the midnight oil like he does. As you alluded to, it has turned into a huge mess with his broad power throughout the shop. Ultimately, as the GM, it is my responsibility to do something. I love the idea of an inside salesperson thereby stripping that from him. Now I just need to lay the ground work to the owners once more showing them how counter-productive our current system truely is. Thanks again for your input.
Last edited:
Heavey Metal
Banned
- Joined
- May 10, 2011
- Location
- Texas
I guess if you use the new math it makes sence to jack up your best worker so the rest of you dont look so bad.
rjs44032
Hot Rolled
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2012
- Location
- NE Ohio USA
First, you need to identify the problem not the symptoms. Sounds to me like the function this forman is filling for your organization has the potential of becoming a key person dependency issue. Yet, he is and has been an asset. So it's difficult to move in the right direction without damaging a good relationship and moral on the floor. Finally the workload has increased, changing the nature of the environment.
I submit that the problem is not the person who is filling the function, it's the function itself.
I suggest a promotion to inside sales for this person and a reorganization of the other aspects of the function that he is filling. This will keep him an asset, promote good work ethic and moral on the floor, and solve the key person dependency of the function.
Best Regards,
Bob
I submit that the problem is not the person who is filling the function, it's the function itself.
I suggest a promotion to inside sales for this person and a reorganization of the other aspects of the function that he is filling. This will keep him an asset, promote good work ethic and moral on the floor, and solve the key person dependency of the function.
Best Regards,
Bob
I suggest this is really a power struggle.
" I have been with the company going on 29yrs. and have been the GM for the last 3. I have two owners that acknowledge the problem but overtime they have turned a blind eye to it because, in their minds, no one else is willing to burn the midnight oil like he does. As you alluded to, it has turned into a huge mess with his broad power throughout the shop. Ultimately, as the GM, it is my responsibility to do something. I love the idea of an inside salesperson thereby stripping that from him. Now I just need to lay the ground work to the owners once more showing them how counter-productive our current system truely is. Thanks again for your input. "
"While I'm painting this picture of a smart and hard worker, he is also incredibly immature and does not handle constructive criticism good at all."
How old is he, and how long has HE been there, and what were you doing before you married one of the Boss's daughters?
Is he ACTUALLY a Foreman, or do you just give him 50 cents more per hour and a title?
If he is really all that important to the company, screwing him over might be bad FOR the company. 70 to 80 hours, per week, IS bad for the company.
Put him on salary, make sure he knows that he is to supervise ONLY the hourly people you or he pick as "Sub-Foremen". I have worked in only 3 places in my working life. Foremen ALWAYS wore suits and ties. They also made more money than I, unless I worked a shit load of OT. That, too, may be one of your bitches, all that OT makes his pay higher than yours, I had Foremen in the steel mill who complained that their hourly production workers made more than they. We had, and still have, people who put in a 100 hours a week. (I am long retired, still have friends who tell me they are averaging 80 hours per. I will say that I think that working doubles all week is more dangerous in a steel mill, than in your small to medium size shop.)
You don't say how old he is, you don't say what his marital status is. It is POSSIBLE that that job is his entire life, and a lot here know how that is. 100 hour weeks are normal, for some of you, most of you? Unless you don't have any work.
"incredibly immature", again, how old is he, and why do you call him "incredibly immature"?
Heavy,
I gave you a "Like", but "I guess if you use the new math it makes sence to jack up your best worker so the rest of you dont look so bad.", I think "jack OFF your best workers" would have been more apt.
Still sounds like a power struggle.
George
" I have been with the company going on 29yrs. and have been the GM for the last 3. I have two owners that acknowledge the problem but overtime they have turned a blind eye to it because, in their minds, no one else is willing to burn the midnight oil like he does. As you alluded to, it has turned into a huge mess with his broad power throughout the shop. Ultimately, as the GM, it is my responsibility to do something. I love the idea of an inside salesperson thereby stripping that from him. Now I just need to lay the ground work to the owners once more showing them how counter-productive our current system truely is. Thanks again for your input. "
"While I'm painting this picture of a smart and hard worker, he is also incredibly immature and does not handle constructive criticism good at all."
How old is he, and how long has HE been there, and what were you doing before you married one of the Boss's daughters?
Is he ACTUALLY a Foreman, or do you just give him 50 cents more per hour and a title?
If he is really all that important to the company, screwing him over might be bad FOR the company. 70 to 80 hours, per week, IS bad for the company.
Put him on salary, make sure he knows that he is to supervise ONLY the hourly people you or he pick as "Sub-Foremen". I have worked in only 3 places in my working life. Foremen ALWAYS wore suits and ties. They also made more money than I, unless I worked a shit load of OT. That, too, may be one of your bitches, all that OT makes his pay higher than yours, I had Foremen in the steel mill who complained that their hourly production workers made more than they. We had, and still have, people who put in a 100 hours a week. (I am long retired, still have friends who tell me they are averaging 80 hours per. I will say that I think that working doubles all week is more dangerous in a steel mill, than in your small to medium size shop.)
You don't say how old he is, you don't say what his marital status is. It is POSSIBLE that that job is his entire life, and a lot here know how that is. 100 hour weeks are normal, for some of you, most of you? Unless you don't have any work.
"incredibly immature", again, how old is he, and why do you call him "incredibly immature"?
Heavy,
I gave you a "Like", but "I guess if you use the new math it makes sence to jack up your best worker so the rest of you dont look so bad.", I think "jack OFF your best workers" would have been more apt.
Still sounds like a power struggle.
George
Similar threads
