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Career Building Advice

AJT

Plastic
Joined
Dec 26, 2018
I am about to turn 24, and have spent the first 5 years of my professional career at one shop doing CAD drafting and trying to soak up what I can about manufacturing. We are a full service shop, so I have had the opportunity to learn from a wide variety of projects from fully fabricated frames to small machined brackets.

That being said, I think I'm beginning to seriously doubt my ability to succeed in this field. I am 5 years into my career, I have built up a decent foundation of design skills (I know to most, if not all I am still wet behind the ears and 5 years is a blink of an eye for some of you). I have started to look for other opportunities at different shops, for various reasons, financial and work environment, but have come to the realization that not having a college degree, it really is a "who you know" situation when trying to find other employment opportunities especially in the engineering/design field. My current position has had me under direct supervision from the VP where I learn a lot and responsibilities have grown, but am very insulated from talking to customers or vendors in general. I haven't built any relationships outside of current coworkers, most of which talk about how they've used personal networks of people from companies they worked with to find and gain employment. I am worried I am wasting valuable time of my early 20's trapped in a job where the shop seems more of a place for people to come and grind out a paycheck as opposed to building careers. I guess this is my long winded way of asking if you guys have ever felt trapped at a job in an environment meant for people about to retire, rather than younger people looking to grow and advance and what you guys did to get out of that situation.
 
Hate to say it to you, but the world is getting smaller every day for a "CAD Draftsman" in most industries. With the advances in 3D software, most companies consider it easier for the engineer who created the concept itself to generate the design rather than explain it in enough detail for someone else to draw it correctly. I know some places considered a certain number of years in a relevant field good enough to "replace" an engineering degree, but the larger the company, the more likely you are to be a second-class citizen without one.

That said, when I was your age (~5 years ago) I was in a similar job where the older guys straight up told me not to hang around any longer than it took me to find another job (owners in their 60s, designers and electricians in their 60s, machinist in his 50s... 11 people total). I also can confirm that knowing someone is a big help. IME, a personal recommendation is an instant interview, and a resume sent blind will never get looked at. My brother ended up talking to his boss and he referred me to a company he used to work for. Any family or friends in a similar industry can get you started with a reference. You never know who might get someone interested in talking to you.

Best of luck to you.
 
many people think its better to have experience at different jobs with different companies. i am not saying change jobs every year but if you work at same place for 30 years some will wonder if you are not as good as someone who worked at more than one place. even if you only worked at 2 companies it still might appear better than only working for one company.
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jobs are like anything you look for whats in demand and pays good. i went to night school and took mastercam cad cam classes. but you can easily find a job at a place that doesnt use mastercam and only one programmer per 500 employees. just saying if shop is looking for cnc operators and job pays $70,000 to $100,000/yr with overtime and benefits why would you even want a job that pays far less and there is little demand. that is search job postings and see what has a lot of job postings for
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its always better if you got job references. that is when applying for a job they often ask for references or people they will call and ask if you are a good worker. this isnt automatic, many dont want to help others and refuse to be a job reference. its not as easy as some think to have people willing to be a job reference. its usually a if you do me a favor i will help you out later thing.
 
Hate to say it to you, but the world is getting smaller every day for a "CAD Draftsman" in most industries. With the advances in 3D software, most companies consider it easier for the engineer who created the concept itself to generate the design rather than explain it in enough detail for someone else to draw it correctly. I know some places considered a certain number of years in a relevant field good enough to "replace" an engineering degree, but the larger the company, the more likely you are to be a second-class citizen without one.

That said, when I was your age (~5 years ago) I was in a similar job where the older guys straight up told me not to hang around any longer than it took me to find another job (owners in their 60s, designers and electricians in their 60s, machinist in his 50s... 11 people total). I also can confirm that knowing someone is a big help. IME, a personal recommendation is an instant interview, and a resume sent blind will never get looked at. My brother ended up talking to his boss and he referred me to a company he used to work for. Any family or friends in a similar industry can get you started with a reference. You never know who might get someone interested in talking to you.

Best of luck to you.

To add to that, if you have a degree, even un-related to what you are doing/want to do, you will be much better off. I worked for a giant global company for about 5-6 years and the tomfoolery is mindboggling. ALL because the chiefexectutiveknowsnothing has a degree so he is automatically smarter than all of the 'worker bees' combined, even though they might know the process inside and out and know exactly when/where the slow downs and inefficiencies are....
 
sure kids get student loans and end up in debt like $100,000 or more in debt and with compound interest payments it actually might cost $1,000,000 to actually pay off the student debt to get a college degree
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then there is the apprentice program that cost nothing to the worker other than maybe $1/hr less for 3 or 4 years. and in 10 years is making $70,000 to $100,000/yr with no student loans and is maxing 401k savings ends up a million in savings rather than no savings when retired.
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just saying be careful believing the school salesman talk trying to sell you a college degree. a plumber might not have a college degree but actually usually makes good pay often more than what someone with a college degree makes and is not heavily in debt with student loans
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a lot of so called "smart" people are pretty bad at math especially compound interest math. dont gamble with your future. do the math first. obviously if you got parents that will pay for your college degree (no loan interest that is they pay it off with no bank loans) thats a factor in the equation
 
I should be more accurate in my job title, CAD Draftsman was kind of a buzzword. Engineering technician would probably be more accurate, as I do more than just 3D model predetermined designs and make production prints. I cover pretty much every engineering task, I just don't have the piece of paper or the fancy title in my email signature. I plan on finishing up a 2 year Associate of Science - Engineering this fall, I hope this helps keep at least some people from brushing me off without any
second thought.
 
sure kids get student loans and end up in debt like $100,000 or more in debt and with compound interest payments it actually might cost $1,000,000 to actually pay off the student debt to get a college degree
.
then there is the apprentice program that cost nothing to the worker other than maybe $1/hr less for 3 or 4 years. and in 10 years is making $70,000 to $100,000/yr with no student loans and is maxing 401k savings ends up a million in savings rather than no savings when retired.
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just saying be careful believing the school salesman talk trying to sell you a college degree. a plumber might not have a college degree but actually usually makes good pay often more than what someone with a college degree makes and is not heavily in debt with student loans
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a lot of so called "smart" people are pretty bad at math especially compound interest math. dont gamble with your future. do the math first. obviously if you got parents that will pay for your college degree (no loan interest that is they pay it off with no bank loans) thats a factor in the equation

Tom, we all know how you love talking about your 70-100k/year working 80 hours a week and all...

I am talking the CEO making 1mil+/year (salary/paycheck/actual money I mean), plus stock options of about 11mil. The rest of the "higher ups" were in the 1/4mil year range, not sure if they had stock options or not, all that money plus paid travel all around the country (firs class/business class of course) and world in some instances.
 
Tom, we all know how you love talking about your 70-100k/year working 80 hours a week and all...

This is why I am worried that I am stuck in a hole. If my paycheck goal depends on me working 70+ hours regularly and not seeing the light of day for weeks at a time (as it does currently), I do not find that as a sustainable life style. I am not adverse to working long weeks periodically as that is what it takes sometimes, but when it becomes the baseline, so that I can say I make just as much as the guy in a suit and tie, that is where I begin to worry about long term success.
 
i would be wary of college trying to sell you a college degree saying your life will be better
.
they are very much like a car salesman,colleges are in business. their main thing is to sell you the ideal getting a college degree will make life easy
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as far as i know Bill Gates the billionaire is a college drop out. not having a college degree doesnt seems to have been bad for him
 
I should be more accurate in my job title, CAD Draftsman was kind of a buzzword. Engineering technician would probably be more accurate, as I do more than just 3D model predetermined designs and make production prints. I cover pretty much every engineering task, I just don't have the piece of paper or the fancy title in my email signature. I plan on finishing up a 2 year Associate of Science - Engineering this fall, I hope this helps keep at least some people from brushing me off without any second thought.

A two year degree will get you an engineering tech role elsewhere. If you want an 'engineer' title, you're gonna need a four year degree or a lot of experience and the right company. I have never worked with a non-degreed engineer at the six companies I've worked for, although the smallest place I've ever worked had $100MM/year of revenue.

What is it you're trying to accomplish, ultimately? What do you enjoy? How much money do you want/need to make to get the lifestyle you want? I think those are the questions to answer to figure out your next step.

This is why I am worried that I am stuck in a hole. If my paycheck goal depends on me working 70+ hours regularly and not seeing the light of day for weeks at a time (as it does currently), I do not find that as a sustainable life style. I am not adverse to working long weeks periodically as that is what it takes sometimes, but when it becomes the baseline, so that I can say I make just as much as the guy in a suit and tie, that is where I begin to worry about long term success.

OK you posted just as I did, but this kinda answers at least one of my questions.

If you want a more predictable and controllable work week, while earning the same salary, getting a four year engineering degree will definitely help. You're young enough I would not be concerned about your ability to 'make it work' even with a family and a full time job. My suggestion would be to find a good state school.

P.S. I have never worn a suit to work, and for that matter prefer jeans and a polo. I don't wear ties to job interviews anymore, and usually ditch the suit or sport coat too. If that's something the company thinks is important, I've learned we're not going to work out.

Tom, we all know how you love talking about your 70-100k/year working 80 hours a week and all...

I am talking the CEO making 1mil+/year (salary/paycheck/actual money I mean), plus stock options of about 11mil. The rest of the "higher ups" were in the 1/4mil year range, not sure if they had stock options or not, all that money plus paid travel all around the country (firs class/business class of course) and world in some instances.

Most large corporation's CEOs (the kind who make $1MM a year plus options) work long hours for decades to get there. As do most people in the C-suite. And usually they're the ones who won the luck lottery, or were more cutthroat than their peers. There's a long line for those positions, and a lot of people who get burned out trying to get there. Yes, a degree is necessary to get those jobs, but most people with a degree will never get near them.

Also, you may think what they're doing is dumb (and in some cases it is), but in a lot of cases they're just following their and the shareholders' financial best interests, which are not necessarily aligned with any of the employees or even the success of parts of the business.

i would be wary of college trying to sell you a college degree saying your life will be better
.
they are very much like a car salesman,colleges are in business. their main thing is to sell you the ideal getting a college degree will make life easy
.
as far as i know Bill Gates the billionaire is a college drop out. not having a college degree doesnt seems to have been bad for him

I'm usually able to ignore your posts, but this bothers me way more than it should(I guess). Clearly we should use the example of one of the richest men in the world (who was the son of one of the richest men in Seattle) as our guide. :rolleyes5: I hate to break it to everyone here, but the chance you end up in that situation is zero. The chance you make it 1% of his net worth over the course of your life is 1.8*10^-9, and probably depends more on your parents wealth than it does on your job.

For anyone who wants to make decisions based on data: Measuring the value of education : Career Outlook: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
 
i would be wary of college trying to sell you a college degree saying your life will be better
.
they are very much like a car salesman,colleges are in business. their main thing is to sell you the ideal getting a college degree will make life easy
.
as far as i know Bill Gates the billionaire is a college drop out. not having a college degree doesnt seems to have been bad for him

People are so quick to point out Bill Gates, but he went to an Ivy League school for two years before determining that he knew enough about computers to wipe his rear end with the diploma he never bothered to actually ever get and strike out on his own. Worked out for him, but there are plenty of nobodies with much the same story, deviating only when they failed to become a market-dominating billionaire.

Yes, there are also some well-paying jobs that don't require a degree, but engineering isn't one of them. The degree proves that you are able to learn, take direction, and master complex skills similar to the ones you will need in the field. Gives people the impression that you are trainable, rather than just a dead-end CAD monkey. If the OP has the aptitude to do part design, top to bottom, let's not tell him to jump ship and snake toilets for 80 hours a week to get wages an engineer could reasonably expect to have in his early 30s.

OP,

Looks like you are on the right track. A 2-year degree and 5 years of practical experience should be enough to open up a conversation with someone worth working for. Try to remember that a job interview is a two-way street. You need to evaluate the employer as a good fit for you and your career goals, without being able to ask too many pointed questions out loud.
 
basic math
40hr/week $25/hr with 6%401k match and $1000 HSA contribution thats
.
$56,000 yr at 20%overtime at 1.5x pay thats
$72,956 yr
.
40 hour at 20% over time that 48hrs/week or 9.6hrs per day 5 days a week
.
if making salary at no extra pay if working overtime you would need to make $35./hr at 40hr/week to make as much and many are expected to work more than 40 hrs a week with no extra pay
.
my point is basic math often shows so called "good" job is not that good of a job. and i aint talking about paying 1/3 or more of your pay paying back student loans. math is the most important tool in a shop. trouble is many dont look at "total costs"
 
basic math
40hr/week $25/hr with 6%401k match and $1000 HSA contribution thats
.
$56,000 yr at 20%overtime at 1.5x pay thats
$72,956 yr
.
40 hour at 20% over time that 48hrs/week or 9.6hrs per day 5 days a week
.
if making salary at no extra pay if working overtime you would need to make $35./hr at 40hr/week to make as much and many are expected to work more than 40 hrs a week with no extra pay
.
my point is basic math often shows so called "good" job is not that good of a job. and i aint talking about paying 1/3 or more of your pay paying back student loans. math is the most important tool in a shop. trouble is many dont look at "total costs"

Most places HSA is not rolled over so if you don't use it you lose it, I would not count that as "earnings". Kind of the same thing as the 401k match, it is not usually "all" yours until 2-3 years when you are fully vested. Not to mention, you can't spend it until retirement when you aren't earning money so...

Besides, who wants to work 45-50 hours their WHOLE life??! Fuc* that! One last thing, I am on my second 'unicorn' job. I make damn good (for a machinist :D) working (on average) less than 40 hours a week!
 
Most places HSA is not rolled over so if you don't use it you lose it, I would not count that as "earnings". Kind of the same thing as the 401k match, it is not usually "all" yours until 2-3 years when you are fully vested. Not to mention, you can't spend it until retirement when you aren't earning money so...

Besides, who wants to work 45-50 hours their WHOLE life??! Fuc* that! One last thing, I am on my second 'unicorn' job. I make damn good (for a machinist :D) working (on average) less than 40 hours a week!

You're confusing HSA and FSA. FSAs do not roll over. HSAs do. I count 401k match as earnings when I compare job offers, but I usually see 3-6% match, with a 2-3% additional match that vests.

I'm with you -- 36-38 hours a week seems to be my sweet spot working for other people. But then all my hobbies seem to turn into making things for people, eventually for money.
 
Getting your two year associates degree is a good start. I'd keep taking night classes and work to turn that into a four year degree. You can save money by taking most of the classes at a community or tech college, then finishing at a more reputable college. Make sure you plan it out carefully so the credits transfer.

That said, even with a four year degree it's still mostly about who you know. Build up your Linked-in connections, make friends and help people online, take side gigs, everything you can do to let the world know who you are and what you're capable of.

I got my AAS in Machine Tool Technologies from Dunwoody in '96, and now I'm running the in-house machining department for a small medical device company and helping with product designs. I got the job because one of the engineers found me on Linked-in and recognized me as the guy who wrote a post processor for a laser for him fifteen years previous.
 
You're confusing HSA and FSA. FSAs do not roll over. HSAs do. I count 401k match as earnings when I compare job offers, but I usually see 3-6% match, with a 2-3% additional match that vests.

I'm with you -- 36-38 hours a week seems to be my sweet spot working for other people. But then all my hobbies seem to turn into making things for people, eventually for money.

You are correct, my fault.

Unfortunately, health ins is one of the biggest factors for me these days when looking for a new job or considering employment. I can live without (it is nice, but not mandatory) 401k match and bonuses and stuff, but being diabetic and having a new history of health issues means I NEED health ins, and it needs to be decent and affordable.
 
I'm usually able to ignore your posts, but this bothers me way more than it should(I guess). Clearly we should use the example of one of the richest men in the world (who was the son of one of the richest men in Seattle) as our guide. :rolleyes5: I hate to break it to everyone here, but the chance you end up in that situation is zero.

lol, its like pointing at a lottery winner as an economic argument for lottery ticket purchases.

To add to that, if you have a degree, even un-related to what you are doing/want to do, you will be much better off. I worked for a giant global company for about 5-6 years and the tomfoolery is mindboggling. ALL because the chiefexectutiveknowsnothing has a degree so he is automatically smarter than all of the 'worker bees' combined

Its because he's CEO not because he's got a degree....and he may not be smarter, but it is a hierarchy and someone has to make the calls. Its a large failure if he's not listening to his people, but its also very common that his/her view is broader than various stakeholders who each will not like different aspects of a decision. Or he could just be an egotistical asshat on steroids because he's got the corner office. Certainly with weak characters promotion can fuel huge ego growth, imo the single biggest problem in management

To the OP. Career developement? Three things

1) Always be figuring out how to add more value (so many ways to do so, you figure it out)
2) Develop your personal program of continuous improvement (so many ways to do so, you figure it out)
3) Get lots of client facing time on your resume. Back room slide rule types set their own ceiling; if you can be come a good communicator, negotiator, customer service advocate etc your stock will skyrocket.
 
From pariel (didn't want to quote the whole thing) -

Most large corporation's CEOs (the kind who make $1MM a year plus options) work long hours for decades to get there. As do most people in the C-suite. And usually they're the ones who won the luck lottery, or were more cutthroat than their peers. There's a long line for those positions, and a lot of people who get burned out trying to get there. Yes, a degree is necessary to get those jobs, but most people with a degree will never get near them.

Also, you may think what they're doing is dumb (and in some cases it is), but in a lot of cases they're just following their and the shareholders' financial best interests, which are not necessarily aligned with any of the employees or even the success of parts of the business.



I can't really say you are wrong, but I can say I saw these failures from the top down all the way into middle management. How much sense does this make -
shut down your in house machine shop (both tool room repair type and new parts), sell off all the machines at a loss, then start a new machine shop on the other side of the world with 90% unskilled labor. :crazy:

That was classic behaviour from them. Yes, I get the labor costs is probably a fraction of here, BUT you already had the machines and people to run/program/set up! Not to mention, in order to get the other show running they were ferrying us (lots of people, not just machining/ME people) back and forth their to try and get it going.

edit: after closing down the local shop, products/parts went back to previous vendors (even though we proved our in house parts were superior quality, faster 'lead' times and cheaper), repairs for tooling all had to be outsourced, etc.
 
Yeah, I've worked for huge multi-nationals too, and the reality is that some of the stuff only makes sense in terms of dollars as calculated by some manager somewhere. It's the nature of the beast for companies that size: great things must happen every quarter, or you're out. So management does something, which a lot of the times means muddying the water.

For example, move work out of the US at huge short term cost, and tell the shareholders that the lower labor costs will pay for it in a few years. A few years roll around and that hasn't happened, but revenues are up so no one asks any questions. And everyone moves on.

Unfortunately, health ins is one of the biggest factors for me these days when looking for a new job or considering employment. I can live without (it is nice, but not mandatory) 401k match and bonuses and stuff, but being diabetic and having a new history of health issues means I NEED health ins, and it needs to be decent and affordable.

That's a good point -- but honestly my experience is that everyone offers health insurance and it all basically sucks, even when it's 'affordable'. $75-150/month for individual, and some of the family prices just get insane. Definitely a critical factor for some. My wife always has better insurance than me and I expect that to continue given her career choices, so not so critical for me, although I usually stick with my own employer's for cost reasons.

As a comparison though, when I was leaving my first job out of college I turned down a job offer based entirely on the fact they didn't have a 401k plan, because I was maxing it out and the relative tax benefit was worth more than the cash raise they were offering me.
 
Yeah, I've worked for huge multi-nationals too, and the reality is that some of the stuff only makes sense in terms of dollars as calculated by some manager somewhere. It's the nature of the beast for companies that size: great things must happen every quarter, or you're out. So management does something, which a lot of the times means muddying the water.

For example, move work out of the US at huge short term cost, and tell the shareholders that the lower labor costs will pay for it in a few years. A few years roll around and that hasn't happened, but revenues are up so no one asks any questions. And everyone moves on.



That's a good point -- but honestly my experience is that everyone offers health insurance and it all basically sucks, even when it's 'affordable'. $75-150/month for individual, and some of the family prices just get insane. Definitely a critical factor for some. My wife always has better insurance than me and I expect that to continue given her career choices, so not so critical for me, although I usually stick with my own employer's for cost reasons.

As a comparison though, when I was leaving my first job out of college I turned down a job offer based entirely on the fact they didn't have a 401k plan, because I was maxing it out and the relative tax benefit was worth more than the cash raise they were offering me.

Umm.. I don't think you have looked at prices in a while! :)

My job at giant corpA had great benefits, at about $530/month*. Great health ins, small(ish) deductible and out of pocket limits. Also got free partial disability and basic life. I actually used the disability one time which was a lifesaver. I was in the hospital for a couple weeks, then rehab for a week, and at home with a home nurse for another couple weeks. So there is that, stoopid decisions or not, the benefits were awesome!

Last job it was the same health ins company and similar benis, but $500+ every pay period (bi-weekly) so over 1k/month!!!!! The current job is about $75/wk, but it's not great, high deductible, they want to not pay every chance they get, no life or disability. :ill:

* edit: for family, don't know what single rates were
 








 
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