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  1. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by CAMasochism View Post
    I'd assume they'd offer you a seat in Congress.
    Oh God no that will ruin our friend Gus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    The crash you are talking aboot is likely the tail end of the Spanish Flu outbreak of 2018, when it seems that it was the Yankee troops from somewhere down in Dixie that actually took it overseas? But Spain got hit the hardest, so they got it named after them....


    -----------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    It's said to have been a mix of factors, end of WW1 so big changes in production requirements, big changes in work force, flu , etc.
    But big difference is " The Fed " didn't print a ton of currency to bail anyone out, business that were no longer needed went under, new ones that were now needed were created, workers found their new place in the world, and in less than 2 years things were indeed roaring. Then 1929 happened, Fed interfered big time, print print print, and that one lasted 10 miserable years, and WW2 as a "kick starter". That's pretty much when free market capitalism died and turned into the crony socialism we have, none of this is true capitalism, and certainly not free market.

    And now the Fed & Democrats just announced another $3 Trillion in "aid" that they just cooked up. They don't seem interested in letting people get back to work and letting the free market sort out the winners and losers. So, I expect this to last quite a while and come with big inflation, and more future taxation.

    There's been a few theories on where the first H1N1 spanish flu came from, some said USA but one possibility was also once again China, and similar to today, they didn't get hit nearly as hard as the rest of the world.

  3. #323
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    Default E-mail From My Bank

    To: SBA PPP Customer
    From: (my bank)

    Date: June 1, 2020

    As you are likely aware, the SBA has developed and published a PPP Loan Forgiveness Application. We have not shared this document with you because Congress is still contemplating changes to the calculations, one of which is an extension of the Covered Period for businesses that were unable to open within the initial 8-week period following the loan date because of the State issued Stay at Home order. On Thursday, the House passed a bill to extend the Covered Period from 8 to 24 weeks and reduced the minimum amount that businesses must devote to maintaining payroll from 75% to 60%. The legislation—which passed the house by a 417-1 vote—now goes to the Senate, where a slightly different bill is in play. Further, Fifty-one state bankers associations yesterday raised concerns that the forgiveness application for PPP loans may be overly burdensome for the nation’s small businesses. In a letter to the Treasury Department and the Small Business Administration, the groups called for a de minimis exception for small firms that would provide complete PPP loan forgiveness upon the completion of a simplified, one-page attestation. As you can see, there are still many details for Washington to decide. While we will do our best to answer any of your questions, we strongly encourage you to rely on your outside accountant and attorney through this process.

    We also understand that, due to the lack of forgiveness clarity, SBA has not yet indicated when they will begin accepting applications. This will obviously impact the forgiveness application timeline and forgiveness amounts. As we understand it, the bank will have 60 days to review your completed application and SBA will have 90 days, from the date the completed application is submitted by the bank to SBA, to decision the forgiveness. This will likely be a long, protracted process that may take us through the remainder of 2020 and, likely, into 2021. We would also like to remind you that, due to the tremendous volume of forgiveness applications SBA will receive, the process is not likely to go smoothly or without challenges.

    We are working with our third-party SBA provider, Innovative Financing Solutions, on developing an online portal whereby you will submit your application electronically and are exploring other options (software) to aid in the forgiveness process. The intent with the online portal is to streamline the process and to insure that the appropriate information passes through the approval process as efficiently as possible. We believe the portal will become available sometime towards the end of June. We do not intend to accept paper applications and supporting data. We are still learning what supporting data you must provide, in addition to the forgiveness application (which will likely be revised). We will communicate those items with you as soon as they are finalized. In the interim, please track and retain payroll related information (including group health insurance, retirement benefit costs, state and local taxes on employee compensation, and any self-employment income - for independent contractors and sole proprietors only) and rent, utilities, and interest on covered loans for the Covered Period or for the Alternative Payroll Covered Period, as you deem appropriate. Payroll registers, cancelled checks, checking account statements (for electronic payments) and payment receipts for covered expenses will all likely have to be provided.

    Lastly, we have attached guidance that the SBA issued late last Friday night related to forgiveness rules, as well as your and our responsibilities throughout the forgiveness process. Please review these documents. Remember, they are subject to change and, as mentioned above, changes are currently being voted on by Congress.

    More to come, we appreciate your patience, this has been a trying process of all involved and we commit to you that we will do our very best to insure appropriate forgiveness is received and the process goes as smoothly as possible. Again, we would like to reiterate, it is highly critical that you engage your accountant and attorney through this process to insure you receive appropriate forgiveness.

    For your further review on the loan forgiveness guidance:
    https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/136/PPP-IFR-Loan-Forgiveness.pdf
    https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/136/PPP-IFR-SBA-Loan-Review-Procedures-and-Related-Borrower-and-Lender-Responsibilities.pdf

    If you have further questions, please contact your loan officer.


    Disclaimer
    The information contained in this communication from the sender is confidential. It is intended solely for use by the recipient and others authorized to receive it. If you are not the recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or taking action in relation of the contents of this information is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.

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  5. #324
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    Well that clarifies a lot . . .

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  7. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    To: SBA PPP Customer
    From: (my bank)

    Date: June 1, 2020

    As you are likely aware, the SBA has developed and published a PPP Loan Forgiveness Application. We have not shared this document with you because Congress is still contemplating changes to the calculations, one of which is an extension of the Covered Period for businesses that were unable to open within the initial 8-week period following the loan date because of the State issued Stay at Home order. On Thursday, the House passed a bill to extend the Covered Period from 8 to 24 weeks and reduced the minimum amount that businesses must devote to maintaining payroll from 75% to 60%. The legislation—which passed the house by a 417-1 vote—now goes to the Senate, where a slightly different bill is in play. Further, Fifty-one state bankers associations yesterday raised concerns that the forgiveness application for PPP loans may be overly burdensome for the nation’s small businesses. In a letter to the Treasury Department and the Small Business Administration, the groups called for a de minimis exception for small firms that would provide complete PPP loan forgiveness upon the completion of a simplified, one-page attestation. As you can see, there are still many details for Washington to decide. While we will do our best to answer any of your questions, we strongly encourage you to rely on your outside accountant and attorney through this process.

    We also understand that, due to the lack of forgiveness clarity, SBA has not yet indicated when they will begin accepting applications. This will obviously impact the forgiveness application timeline and forgiveness amounts. As we understand it, the bank will have 60 days to review your completed application and SBA will have 90 days, from the date the completed application is submitted by the bank to SBA, to decision the forgiveness. This will likely be a long, protracted process that may take us through the remainder of 2020 and, likely, into 2021. We would also like to remind you that, due to the tremendous volume of forgiveness applications SBA will receive, the process is not likely to go smoothly or without challenges.

    We are working with our third-party SBA provider, Innovative Financing Solutions, on developing an online portal whereby you will submit your application electronically and are exploring other options (software) to aid in the forgiveness process. The intent with the online portal is to streamline the process and to insure that the appropriate information passes through the approval process as efficiently as possible. We believe the portal will become available sometime towards the end of June. We do not intend to accept paper applications and supporting data. We are still learning what supporting data you must provide, in addition to the forgiveness application (which will likely be revised). We will communicate those items with you as soon as they are finalized. In the interim, please track and retain payroll related information (including group health insurance, retirement benefit costs, state and local taxes on employee compensation, and any self-employment income - for independent contractors and sole proprietors only) and rent, utilities, and interest on covered loans for the Covered Period or for the Alternative Payroll Covered Period, as you deem appropriate. Payroll registers, cancelled checks, checking account statements (for electronic payments) and payment receipts for covered expenses will all likely have to be provided.

    Lastly, we have attached guidance that the SBA issued late last Friday night related to forgiveness rules, as well as your and our responsibilities throughout the forgiveness process. Please review these documents. Remember, they are subject to change and, as mentioned above, changes are currently being voted on by Congress.

    More to come, we appreciate your patience, this has been a trying process of all involved and we commit to you that we will do our very best to insure appropriate forgiveness is received and the process goes as smoothly as possible. Again, we would like to reiterate, it is highly critical that you engage your accountant and attorney through this process to insure you receive appropriate forgiveness.

    For your further review on the loan forgiveness guidance:
    https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/136/PPP-IFR-Loan-Forgiveness.pdf
    https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/136/PPP-IFR-SBA-Loan-Review-Procedures-and-Related-Borrower-and-Lender-Responsibilities.pdf

    If you have further questions, please contact your loan officer.


    Disclaimer
    The information contained in this communication from the sender is confidential. It is intended solely for use by the recipient and others authorized to receive it. If you are not the recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or taking action in relation of the contents of this information is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.
    Must be a form letter, I received the same. Money has been deposited into shop account although it’s more than what I do in a year. Not even going to touch it.

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  9. #326
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    And I hear there's now talk of a possible $450/wk "back to work bonus " as a carrot to get people to go back to work.
    Hard to imagine that would happen but anything is possible in this clown world.
    UBI is next.

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    I hope you guys will be careful dealing with money from the government. With that letter is a good example of things being in flux while legislators are still messing with it.

    I doubt there will be much of a free pass here as the money delivered is one heck of a huge chunk. They do not want to lose that money it is tax money anyway.

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  13. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by SND View Post
    And I hear there's now talk of a possible $450/wk "back to work bonus " as a carrot to get people to go back to work.
    Hard to imagine that would happen but anything is possible in this clown world.
    UBI is next.

    Along that same line and about the same dollars I found this on the work share section interesting,
    How Michigan can save $80M and give state workers a raise amid coronavirus | Bridge Magazine
    From the article: "The only obvious loser in the arrangement, it seems, is the growing federal deficit, which taxpayers will someday be asked to address."
    It feels like gaming the system but if the state can do it should not all employers?
    Bob

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    Well, its pretty much like the looters(Unwanted shoppers?), get it before the free money store is empty and burns to the ground...
    It's probably also worth considering that since this freshly created currency isn't going back off the Fed's balance sheet to unwind it anytime soon.
    If the Gov/Banks ask for any of this "help $$$" back, what are they really gonna do with it? certainly not pay the debt... (pretty sure that'll be really worth rioting over...)

    Anyone familiar with how to offload that much inflation wouldn't be betting too much on bringing much manufacturing back to the USA unfortunately, but we'll see.

    It's gonna be a fun ride, best wear a helmet.

  16. #330
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    Looting does very little for the economy, but burning businesses and buildings does. Creates jobs in construction to rebuild. Jobs in tech for surveillance cameras, security types, even steel roll down window shutters. Yeah, a bit cynical for sure.
    We have spent a few weeks in Europe during the Fall for the past many years. Almost every hotel no matter where it was had metal roll down window barriers. Almost all came down automatically at some early evening hour. Many businesses as well.
    And for most of Europe, hard to find a single cig butt anywhere. Could walk for blocks in Switzerland and maybe find 1.

  17. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scruffy887 View Post
    Looting does very little for the economy, but burning businesses and buildings does. Creates jobs in construction to rebuild. Jobs in tech for surveillance cameras, security types, even steel roll down window shutters..
    It doesn't.
    It destroys wealth and takes away from building/investing in new value and actually growing, one step forward, 2 steps back doesn't get anywhere fast. It also raises the costs for everyone.
    Most of these small businesses being burnt down right now will not be back, as if trying to survive the world wide flu response incompetence wasn't bad enough. How much of what burnt down in the LA riots almost 30 years ago got rebuilt, and how long did that take?
    Needless to say I'm not much of a believer in Keynesian/MMT economics...
    In Canada the reality is slowly starting to set in and businesses are starting to file for bankruptcy. Some of the "help" offered by the gov is nothing more than disguised nationalization.

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  19. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by SND View Post
    It doesn't.
    It destroys wealth and takes away from building/investing in new value and actually growing, one step forward, 2 steps back doesn't get anywhere fast. It also raises the costs for everyone.
    Most of these small businesses being burnt down right now will not be back, as if trying to survive the world wide flu response incompetence wasn't bad enough. How much of what burnt down in the LA riots almost 30 years ago got rebuilt, and how long did that take?
    Needless to say I'm not much of a believer in Keynesian/MMT economics...
    In Canada the reality is slowly starting to set in and businesses are starting to file for bankruptcy. Some of the "help" offered by the gov is nothing more than disguised nationalization.
    For sure I was not serious. And it will get far worse before it gets better in many sectors. Yesterday I got a nice PO from our distributor in Quebec. Last nice PO from them was January I think.
    Gov money was a big help as I lost a months production. I'll have to pay some of it back, not really worried about that. More worried about "Make America Hate Again" coming from POTUS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scruffy887 View Post
    For sure I was not serious. And it will get far worse before it gets better in many sectors. Yesterday I got a nice PO from our distributor in Quebec. Last nice PO from them was January I think.
    Gov money was a big help as I lost a months production. I'll have to pay some of it back, not really worried about that. More worried about "Make America Hate Again" coming from POTUS.
    “ More worried about "Make America Hate Again" coming from POTUS”

    Kidding again maybe? At least he does not want to wait to act if a lot of things get destroyed and burned out. Here that is a hinderance to making a living added on to the pandemic effects.

    To see that those officers and others like them do wrong not prove America is full of hate. Problems yes hate no. If there were that much hate these problems with all the destruction and violence would never end. People wishing to avoid bringing the guard in are wise. They seem to be learning how to deal with all this. Even the most right or left person here are not haters really. Some might disagree on that point.

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    Received a call from my bank ASKING if I had considered Payroll Protection and if they could get me signed up for it.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Trueturning View Post
    “ More worried about "Make America Hate Again" coming from POTUS”
    Oh, please. Trump didn't cause any of this.

    Law enforcement as a career unfortunately attracts bullies. That has ALWAYS been the case. Granted, the deliberately concealed first 13 seconds of the Rodney King tape clearly show him getting up and going after the cops, which gave them an obviously welcome excuse to beat him, which they clearly enjoyed. But it didn't matter what color he was. It could've been you or me. Get them started and they will engage in pack-reinforced behavior, just like the scumbag who murdered Floyd.

    But if I'm unfairly generalizing about big-city cops, is it unfair to observe that a protest demonstration was hijacked by professional agitators who pre-positioned caches of bricks and Molotov cocktails? Or to observe that the lexicon employed by the most vocal of the "protestors" is not merely destructive, but classically Marxist-Leninist? But, there's not much I can do as an individual except vote, and (surprise) it won't be for the blue-checks who have run those urban hellholes for decades. As long as they remain in power those cities will fester. No, I'm gonna vote for the guy who spent my tax money on MY enterprise, which I consider an eminently productive use. And if the Army has to be sent in (violation of posse comitatus or not) well, maybe it's time. That's no more radical a concept than the official abolition of the police—a classic example of be careful what you wish for.

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  24. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwrench View Post
    Oh, please. Trump didn't cause any of this.

    Law enforcement as a career unfortunately attracts bullies. That has ALWAYS been the case. Granted, the deliberately concealed first 13 seconds of the Rodney King tape clearly show him getting up and going after the cops, which gave them an obviously welcome excuse to beat him, which they clearly enjoyed. But it didn't matter what color he was. It could've been you or me. Get them started and they will engage in pack-reinforced behavior, just like the scumbag who murdered Floyd.

    But if I'm unfairly generalizing about big-city cops, is it unfair to observe that a protest demonstration was hijacked by professional agitators who pre-positioned caches of bricks and Molotov cocktails? Or to observe that the lexicon employed by the most vocal of the "protestors" is not merely destructive, but classically Marxist-Leninist? But, there's not much I can do as an individual except vote, and (surprise) it won't be for the blue-checks who have run those urban hellholes for decades. As long as they remain in power those cities will fester. No, I'm gonna vote for the guy who spent my tax money on MY enterprise, which I consider an eminently productive use. And if the Army has to be sent in (violation of posse comitatus or not) well, maybe it's time. That's no more radical a concept than the official abolition of the police—a classic example of be careful what you wish for.
    That one is a quote from another member Oldwrench -not mine. It was a quote from another member I put in “....” which is a quote.

    The quote is of a quote originally from another poster. -

    ——-Quote Originally Posted by Trueturning View Post
    “ More worried about "Make America Hate Again" coming from POTUS”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trueturning View Post
    That one is a quote from another member Oldwrench -not mine. It was a quote from another member I put in “....” which is a quote.

    The quote is of a quote originally from another poster.
    So it is, my apologies. To avoid having a quotation confused with your own post it's worth the trouble of inserting brackets with the QUOTE and /QUOTE markups. I see it was posted by Scruffy, who apparently also thinks destruction of property opens up construction jobs. Must be why Detroit is such a boomtown...

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  27. #338
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    In all fairness, I think Detroit's worst enemy is simply poverty.
    You can drive down many streets that are all boarded up. Like 2/3 of the houses are boarded up!

    Shirley there are jobs for those that want to earn a living on their own (look at the outlying areas) but obviously many in Detroit proper choose to go the easy route and put their stock in Dole.



    ----------------------


    Girl try to remember when we didn't have no shoes
    How we made it downtown to the Welfare Office, just me, just you


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    In all fairness, I think Detroit's worst enemy is simply poverty.
    You can drive down many streets that are all boarded up. Like 2/3 of the houses are boarded up!

    Shirley there are jobs for those that want to earn a living on their own (look at the outlying areas) but obviously many in Detroit proper choose to go the easy route and put their stock in Dole.



    ----------------------
    Don't know if this is Detroit proper or some other municipality but look at Google Earth of Detroit, the area bounded on north by Nevada,west by Chrysler Freeway, South 6 mile Rd. east by Ryan Rd. And area bounded by 7 mile on north, Chrysler on east, Manchester on south and Woodward on west. Amazing the number of vacant lots.

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    Detroit got what it wanted by chasing away all the people with money and thinking central planning could do better than the free market.
    Turns out people with money are usually the ones who create jobs, and are better at it than the government.
    Something we're not done seeing a lot of everywhere as nobody learned yet.

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