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  1. #21
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    If at 30 he is still cocky he must really have his head up his ass. My cocky phase was relatively short lived, since my early 20s I have been convinced that I'm just an idiot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nopoint View Post
    I once had a boss who solved these problems on occasion by making the problem child work with the most ornery guy on hand. Typically I would think of this as being an old hard noised veteran of the day. Although in this case it was me an impatient 20 something kid who wanted to get stuff done. In our case it was laziness and lack of punctuality. My strategy was to outwork them and generally convince them that it would be just easier to quit. Nothing physical ever just hard crappy work with lots of verbal abuse. Two days was the max they lasted.
    I worked at a place that sent the problem children to our department, that was in the mid 80's in SoCal. They were assigned to us when they reported to work in the morning. Most of them never returned from lunch break, some off the stuff we did might have got us in trouble with today's authorities. Making them clean sumps while the tool crib attendant would claim to be out of gloves was one of the worst things, especially on a hot day, the building did not have air conditioning.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJ H View Post
    If at 30 he is still cocky he must really have his head up his ass. My cocky phase was relatively short lived, since my early 20s I have been convinced that I'm just an idiot.
    Not necessarily. The behavior described by piechomper sounds all too familiar. I have encountered several such over the years.

    For such people the rudeness to all but upper management is part of a life strategy. The reason lower level employees think they are somebody's relative is because they are expert at ingratiating themselves to those with the real power. Everyone else is subjected to the rude cocky behavior basically to brush off demands that they behave or perform their job properly. At heart such people are grifters whose outlook is to get ahead in life with as little physical effort as possible. They tend to be experts at sucking up to the people they need while treating everyone else as foolish drones worthy only of contempt.

    During a talk with one such subordinate he actually bragged that he intended to create the type of job he wanted by shedding all "grunt" work. He had bamboozled the department manager and as he told me, if that failed to last he would simply move on to greener pastures. He was well past his thirties and apparently had enjoyed great success in the past with his strategy. Unfortunately for him, a higher level manager caught on and they gave him the boot.

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  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Not necessarily. The behavior described by piechomper sounds all too familiar. I have encountered several such over the years.

    For such people the rudeness to all but upper management is part of a life strategy. The reason lower level employees think they are somebody's relative is because they are expert at ingratiating themselves to those with the real power. Everyone else is subjected to the rude cocky behavior basically to brush off demands that they behave or perform their job properly. At heart such people are grifters whose outlook is to get ahead in life with as little physical effort as possible. They tend to be experts at sucking up to the people they need while treating everyone else as foolish drones worthy only of contempt.

    During a talk with one such subordinate he actually bragged that he intended to create the type of job he wanted by shedding all "grunt" work. He had bamboozled the department manager and as he told me, if that failed to last he would simply move on to greener pastures. He was well past his thirties and apparently had enjoyed great success in the past with his strategy. Unfortunately for him, a higher level manager caught on and they gave him the boot.
    That game usually only works if upper management has next to no knowledge of the jobs the worker bees are doing underneath them. I worked for a shop owner who was an excellent salesman who built his business by poaching the customers of his employer, a few of the employees, and a loan from his successful businessman father. The guy had zero mechanical aptitude, didn't know a lathe from a toaster and had no interest in trying to learn. He was a constant victim of experts in butt kissing and playing office politics, two games I refuse to play. His success was tied to getting no bid work from a medical device supply company, it was pretty obvious he found himself a dirty purchasing agent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    Did you have any hints of the upcoming mayhem, or did the apprentice seem OK at the beginning?

    While I've never had a formal apprentice program at my shop, I've been fairly lucky with the youngsters that I've hired, only had one that really couldn't understand the "physics" of tool use, and at least he tried.
    I would of fired him the first week.....

    That is above my pay grade..

    Took 3 1/2 years.........

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    Try hiring your younger brother and father. End Paying your father to sit at home where he has no other income and can’t work anymore and not paying him means he goes homeless. and your younger brother ends up with Leukemia blood cancer and the chemo destroys his joints to the point he can’t lift any weight.


    Now hire a 3rd worker to be your brothers legs and find out they actually enable each other to slack.

    When your looking at Essentially firing your whole company what do you do?
    And how do you keep things going while you have ZERO workers?

    Sometimes it gives the vibe that IM the one who’s the slave, cleaning up the shit they missed, fixing errors, chasing the money, taxes, healthcare, pretty much all aspects of management.

    Bite the bullet. I Canned all 3 last Friday.

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  9. #27
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    Stay calm and put things in writing. IT seems officious but it is the only way to CYA. Write out on paper/email/text exactly what is required of a job, because you will say, I cannot remember things otherwise. He can no longer deny being told what to do. When he screws it up, reply in the same way with the list of needed corrections.

    WHile I have not met the people Scott describes, I know they exist. I have not been subject to anyone else's opinion of my work habits for decades, so I am a little behind.

    Don't fall into the generational BS. People have always been lazy drunken and conniving.

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    Quote Originally Posted by john.k View Post
    ...The guy I worked for used to get his jollies capriciously firing people,and later coughing up $5000 or so for unlawful dismissal.
    Well, I don't agree with capriciously firing, but I've had to get rid of more than one bad apple where I'd have cheerfully paid $5000 and considered it cheap!

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    Quote Originally Posted by john.k View Post
    here ,a permanent employee has to be given written warnings,verbal warnings,counselled by employers and supervisors,and a written notice of termination,stating reasons ,and a record of the assorted allegations, counsellings ,warnings etc. ,all separated by a suitable period to allow it to soak in......The guy I worked for used to get his jollies capriciously firing people ,and later coughing up $5000 or so for unlawful dismissal.
    In the UK you can give dismissal notice to a person without fair reason if they are still within their first 2 years of employment with you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piechomper View Post
    Iíve already talked with him about his attitude , but I havenít thought about writing him up officially. I think I will go down that route and see what effect that has on him. As far as I am concerned his cards are well and truly marked.
    I have always tried to be a firm but fair foreman and as the rest of my staff are all around the fifty years old age like myself they are all good workers with a good work ethic and a pleasure to work with. Young guys these days seem to just want the wages and arenít prepared to put the effort in to earn it and learn the trade. When I was starting out the old guys would punch you if you mouthed off or wouldnít work.

    The only thing different I see from my generation vs todays generation is technology and the internet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawnrs View Post
    The only thing different I see from my generation vs todays generation is technology and the internet.
    There are more ways to goof off at work these days, so managing a work force is more of a PITA than back in the day. You could only entertain yourself so long reading the sports page sitting on the can.

    Kids don't seem as motivated to get out on their own as in back in the day, that technology again, more ways to goof off. There wasn't any video game addicts back in days gone by.

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    Ran into one of these lately.
    In my case the guy is not safe and. jumps in where not invited to try to run heavy lifts etc.

    Work is tough if people are not in their lane.
    If he is your charge fire him.

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    Seeing how you must keep him on....deduct from his wages the mistakes.

    or have him repair the damage on his own time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    There are more ways to goof off at work these days, so managing a work force is more of a PITA than back in the day. You could only entertain yourself so long reading the sports page sitting on the can.

    Kids don't seem as motivated to get out on their own as in back in the day, that technology again, more ways to goof off. There wasn't any video game addicts back in days gone by.
    I don't know how old you are Dual, but I was a video game addict, troublemaking teenager in the early 90's and I managed to "turn it around".

    I think the real problem with kids getting out on their own now (with the exception of having college and college loans shoved down their throat), is wages have stagnated. I started working for $5/hour in 1992, was up about $1/hr until early 2000ish..? So I think I was making like $18/hr in mid 2000 or so. I see (I know I know) machinist skilled trade, experienced, offering that or less now. Where I live a crap ass beat to shit trailer will rent for $900/month, *nicer* apartments will be in the $1200/month range. (Yes I know there are cheaper places to live than Tampa area FL)... Net wages at $20/hr is going to be around... 2200-2400/month? Scratch about half of that for rent, then add utilities, groceries, car note/insurance HEALTH INSURANCE! ()... not any money left.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    Ran into one of these lately.
    In my case the guy is not safe and. jumps in where not invited to try to run heavy lifts etc.

    Work is tough if people are not in their lane.
    If he is your charge fire him.
    That IMO is the most dangerous kind of person. For some reason a few individuals with zero knowledge of rigging always want to run the show. I try to schedule such things for times when only trusted hands are around.

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    I sit on the sidelines an read all with interest and wonder how fixing or leadership works.
    I think the vote here is known which I find more curious.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    I don't know how old you are Dual, but I was a video game addict, troublemaking teenager in the early 90's and I managed to "turn it around".

    I think the real problem with kids getting out on their own now (with the exception of having college and college loans shoved down their throat), is wages have stagnated. I started working for $5/hour in 1992, was up about $1/hr until early 2000ish..? So I think I was making like $18/hr in mid 2000 or so. I see (I know I know) machinist skilled trade, experienced, offering that or less now. Where I live a crap ass beat to shit trailer will rent for $900/month, *nicer* apartments will be in the $1200/month range. (Yes I know there are cheaper places to live than Tampa area FL)... Net wages at $20/hr is going to be around... 2200-2400/month? Scratch about half of that for rent, then add utilities, groceries, car note/insurance HEALTH INSURANCE! ()... not any money left.
    No argument about stagnating wages, I am 60, when I started out trades paid about double minimum wage for an apprentice that could pass an aptitude test. Even then no way I could afford to live where I grew up and have any kind of life. I did a thing called moving and did another thing called getting a roommate. I also did a thing called working overtime. I suppose those aren't options these days? Where I grew up it probably took at least the bread winner making $30+ an hour and a homemaker working part time to afford the average lifestyle in the late 70's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    That IMO is the most dangerous kind of person. For some reason a few individuals with zero knowledge of rigging always want to run the show. I try to schedule such things for times when only trusted hands are around.
    The worst part for me is they always seem to be in a rush to show you how fast they can do it which scares me, you can do a lot of things wrong slowly and still come out fine but it don't have to stray too far from perfect at speed to cause a big problem, that there is hard to teach.

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    The thing that gets me with heavy work is everyone thinks jumping in to help helps.
    All I see is more people to get killed if a pick tears out or something else goes wrong.
    I want as few personnel as is needed and no more,

    And you have got it- no rushing around.

    This speaks right to this thread- there needs to be someone in charge who has authority to shut down the pushy know it all types who are out of their depth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    The thing that gets me with heavy work is everyone thinks jumping in to help helps.
    All I see is more people to get killed if a pick tears out or something else goes wrong.
    I want as few personnel as is needed and no more,

    And you have got it- no rushing around.

    This speaks right to this thread- there needs to be someone in charge who has authority to shut down the pushy know it all types who are out of their depth.
    Pushy, know-it-all who works safely and honestly when hands-on, stays TF at a distance as-ordered, is just an annoyance. Every place has those.

    Pushy-loud, or polite and dull, any chronic safety problem or hider-LIAR, either one needs sent-off, and now and then on the spot, not after "the usual" policy or bargaining-unit mandated progression.

    "Government" Agency WILL back that up, so long as there is reasonable cause. BTDTGGTS, State LRB hearings, more than just the one time or US State.

    I've TWICE even had two IBEW shop-stewards hit me in private, one-on-one to THANK me for that.. and tip me that no, even the rabidly radical Union as that particular local was ..was NOT going to make a whisper of noise, over it.

    Because THEY, not "Management", were the very ones the asshole was putting at-risk of injury. And "oh, btw" they only wondered ... why "the company" hadn't kicked the ass out the door SOONER!!

    "We do OUR job. Good to see the Company finally did THEIR job!"

    Don't argue when you hear that. Can't win when it was overdue already.

    Because in the normal course of worplaces as they are, the folks right next to any such malign influences see several times as much of the s**t than the first-line manager sees.

    They are not surprised. They are relieved.

    Now and then, even grateful. Snide remarks or not!



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