Contemplation on "How to handle comments from employee"

So, there was a very useful thread about troubling employee behavoir here:
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/13/5433.html

It contained lots of good and wise advise, which sadly was sometimes contradictory (sigh.)

I want to ask a different question.

OK, so I'm "the owner/boss" and I hire you and because I'm well off retired crazy software guy, I do indeed sit in a chair and watch whilst you make parts and clean goo out of the machine.

So what? Why should I have to defend this behavoir? I have hired you at an agreed on rate for an agreed on job. I pay you religiously. I comply with the law. I don't discriminate against or you treat you badly in any social sense.

WHY SHOULD I EVER HAVE TO DEFEND THAT?

Note there are LOTs of people I hire to do things like maintain my yard, and they could all (truthfully!) claim "you never...". And NOT ONE of them has EVER subjected me to the treatment D got.

So, why was D. defensive? Why so much writing about "it's as much or more work to be the boss" (which is true.) Why defend?

[This is a pot asking the kettle why it's black. I'm really defensive about all sorts of stuff too.]

No need to defend. Your employee has a job, you have a job. You need to be clear about your expectations and treat your employee fairly. If your employee doesn't understand their role (and that cursing out the owner isn't part of their job description) you need to clarify it for them and ensure from the get go that they know what behavior is expected. If they can't comply, get rid of them.

In the case you mention, I don't know why D was defensive. The employee was out of line and should have at a minimum been immediately sent home to sit for a few days w/o pay, although firing was the better choice. What I did see in his initial commentis that D had tolerated similar behavior minus the obscenities from this guy in the past and may have had concerns because he had tolerated it in the past.

I went back and spot reviewed the thread, all the stuff that applied anyway.

The way to fire an employee is this:

1. Warn and document the first infraction and the discussion. Also note the remediation.

2. Document a second infraction and remediation and failure toi remediate.

3. Fire them.

If it is a safety issue, this is immediate. In D's case, this was not the case.

This is the standard practive to help when the Labor boards get involved, lawyers, or if the employee decides to do something like call OHSA. It also provides basis for legal basis should the employee decide toi sue of harass, you can counter sue.

Learned this years back.

An employee that undermines an organization through consistent poor behavior, challenges to authority, or challenges to fellow co-workers is costly - no matter their skill level or "irrep[lacability". They chase away future potential employees who could be as good and inhibit others who wish to grow in an organization - perhaps becoming as good as the employee in question - such as in D's shop. I would imagine if D were to track it down, he would find he was NOT the only target of abuse and he would find employees who would be glad to see this person go.

The second thing I have found is that this disrespectful person probably lets bad parts go or does less than quality work when not watched.

The hardest part of being the boss IS being the boss. You are no longer a "buddy", you have to make decisions and not let some things you may have let go on the floor -as a buddy to one- go by. You have to see a larger picture. Bosses are not liked, this is fact. The more you seek the top waters in the pond, the more the fish who do not see your butt. However, it was your choice - live with it or sink back to the bottom where you are comfortable.

yeah, I am a teacher, but I also have a pretty major boss job in another part of my life. Yes, I have made a couple of choices that made people mad and lost me a quality person, but that quality person was in the end a detriment in the long run.

I do indeed sit in a chair and watch whilst you make parts and clean goo out of the machine.

Click to expand...

Oddly enuff , even though I not the boss (I'm a CNC programmer/setter/dogsbody) I get the self same complaint from the operators whenever they are told to do something.

I just keep telling them that they are doing nothing I have'nt done in the past and if they stick with engineering long enough, they'll be telling operators of their own what to do.

Boris

Failing that... a tazer is good motivation

..cut through the crap and grab the tazer. quick, effective.......(mr slammy's no slouch either)

It's thanks to Mr, Slammey that operators in my shop are as well behaved and productive as they are......
So, Here's to you Boris!

As the owner if you chose to sit around doing nothing in full view of the employees then don't expect the same level of performance a true leader would inspire by leading by example.

Let's be realistic. How many machine shop owners actually get to set around and do nothing? None that I know. Yeah, I may take a break for a few minutes at my desk, but my "to do" list as the owner is miles long.
Running a machine shop in today's world is tough. A lot of hard work. Decisions made every day that can make or break the business. Dealing with all the crap an owner has to deal with is usually very under-appreciated by the employees.
I think shop owners should occasionally talk to their employees about how tough it is owning a machine shop. And how easy it is to lose work, or go broke. And how much stress a business puts on you and your family.
If employees are too inmature to realize all this, send them to the local call center to answer phones all day.

As the owner if you chose to sit around doing nothing in full view of the employees then don't expect the same level of performance a true leader would inspire by leading by example.

Click to expand...

The owner of a hobby-shop is a different deal than a commercial machine shop owner and in that case by sitting in the chair watching he IS providing a leadership example, to wit "do as I did and you get to do what you want to do".

Do employees really get to tell the boss "I'll go to work for you, but if you don't serve as a good example of hard work for me I get to slough off"?

cheers,
Michael

Move to OR. We're an "at will" state.

If he/she smarts off, you reply is:

"I'm "the owner/boss" and I hired you and because I'm a well off, retired, crazy software guy, I do indeed sit in a chair and watch whilst you make parts and clean goo out of the machine.
I have hired you at an agreed on rate for an agreed on job. I pay you religiously. I comply with the law. I don't discriminate against or you treat you badly in any social sense. Get your a$$ back to work or get out the friggin door"

It does not pay to be a "nice guy".

Bryan,
When are you going to hire me to run your new DMG?
Mark Hockett

Everyone that's been in the business a while know's the boss has a tough job. The only thing the average button pusher/parts loader observes is that you're clean, you have an office and all he sees is you walking around the shop. He's covered in coolant, his hands are cut up from burrs and thinks he knows more than you do and works harder. Most operators have no idea of what goes on behind that office door except that the paychecks come outta there.

Yes, but, (there's always a "but").

There's a couple of ways I have seen this theory go awry. One is where the owner does not provide the requisite equipment to do the job he expects. So employee's predictably get ticked when the boss gets a new mercedes, but you (the employee) don't get a pack of inserts.

Another is when the boss spends no time in the shop, to the point of not understanding what's going on, then wants to criticize his perception of poor performance.

These are the exceptions, and the error usually happens the other way (I've been on both sides), it is the employee's underestimating the amount of time the boss works, and overestimating how much he makes for his troubles.

But I have seen examples of the boss not doing right by his company and his employees.

Cheers!

Another is when the boss spends no time in the shop, to the point of not understanding what's going on, then wants to criticize his perception of poor performance.

Click to expand...

Then employees quit in mass and take the customers with them, form a startup company and the former boss gets a job at the local Home Depot after the auction.

I would have to say I have seen this from both sides of the table. I worked in the aerospace industry and you wanna talk about dead weight??? Bosses that are pulling 60K and up to do nothing but make a couple phone calls per day and be a good listener in meetings. GD that boiled my blood. To the point of walking, that is for sure.

We give a written test to applicants to test social and math skills and we have certain "optional" questions like "do you smoke?"

I am sure I will get **** about that but it is a know and written fact that smokers are not as productive.

Now, my personality just happens to be aggressive but I firmly believe that if you want productive employees, you have to crack the whip and show them by "example". If an employee wants to shout at me, he will not get past his first sentence before I help him load up his box and find the nearest door. That is unacceptable behavior by an employee or employer.

I absolutely think is is the employers job to set standards and goals for the employees. IA, all 500 parts done today right?? This gives them something to work towards. It ain't grade school but damn close.

The most productive and best machinist I've ever hired or worked with have been smokers.

The two have nothing in common.

The laziest and most worthless employees I've ever hired or have worked around were non smokers.....that doesn't mean anything either.

I quit smoking for the second time over a month ago......so far I haven't gotten any faster or lazier....

smokers are not as productive

Click to expand...

I'd have to see documentation to believe that. Now, if you said PIPE smokers, I'd second that in heartbeat.

http://www.occupationalhazards.com/News/Article/39313/Smokers_Less_Productive_than_Nonsmokers_Survey_Finds.aspx

This was only the first study I found on google. Studies have been performed all over the world. There is no doubt that smokers cost more. Not trying to ruffle feathers but proving my point.

I have witnessed it first hand or should I say second hand. My best friend is a smoker but what is not first obvious by productivity, will be apparent in the years to come in the form of medical claims. Free country to smoke though.

Mark Hockett - I have to learn more about the DMG so I can understand when you make me look foolish by doing things 8x faster...

re: Smokers. It's a *generalization* that they are less productive, and probably includes things like insurance costs and sick days. Says very little about any one person.

re: Yelling and Course Language. Um, well, just swearing (even at the boss) wouldn't get you (or at least didn't get me) fired at a prior employer. However, the boss was quite likely to return fire. Then again, to have that sort of job there, you have to Really Know Your Stuff. So it was really and truly very different from JoeButtonPusher who doesn't understand anything.

And I understand they've mellowed now....

I don't buy the smokers thing and can't imagine passing on a job candidate only because they smoke. Productivity has more to do with work ethic and brains.

I grant you smokers are more likely to get get respitory illnesses. But compare a non-smoker with kids in school who drag home a new virus every other week to a smoker with no kids and I guarantee you the non-smoker with kids will be sick more often.

A smokers story...

I smoke and I have out produced my peers in every job I have ever had. I got a job at a cnc machine shop years ago turning big cast iron brake drums on a G&L. Within 3 months I outproduced every man on my shift. My scrap rate was zero. My crash rate was zero. And we were allowed to smoke on the job.

They took me off the G&L brake drums and put me on the most demanding job on the shift, running big azz stainless plug screws on a Mori and I also got to do the first run on all the new programs out of the CAM department. Talk about an opportunity to crash a machine yet again zero crashes, zero scrap, high production.

At 18 months they installed a suggestion box for ideas on improving productivity. My suggestions filled 12 pages. Nearly all of them were adopted. That raised some eyebrows and 3 months later they moved me to the engineering department. If anything I'm a poster child for hiring a smoker!!! lol

Don't get me wrong, smoking is a bad bad thing and I'm down to about 1/2 a pack of ultralights a day. Sometime this year I'll be a non-smoker. But don't dismiss a job candidate simply because they smoke.