Convincing employees to invest in their tools???

When I started out the biggest shocker to me was the cost of building up my tool box. Mic's, calipers, squares, etc. You know the routine. But I did it, I had to and so did everyone else. Now I'm on the other end of things and training guys that need to do the same. My patience is wearing thin and we're on the verge of growing again. I want to set a precedence before I bring in more help.

I've tried forcing them to do it within a certain time of employment. Heavy hand hasn't seemed to work

I've tried setting up tool loans where I put together a kit/box and they pay me out of their wages. They don't seem to take care of them like the tools are their own. The other problem is a number of time people quit before they've paid me back, then I have a situation where I own half the tools and they own half (used and abused).

Do you know if banks or credit unions do small loans $250-500 for people to buy work tools?

Right now I'm looking at going back to the heavy handed approach - Have your tools by a certain date or quit. That's a last resort. Any other ideas?

Well i tried to do that. (buy all my own mics and calipers) but the company that i work for didnt like that. They wanted me to use there tools, not mine. so im not really alowed to bring in my own stuff anymore.

When I started in the machinist trade, a tool list was given to me. It was expected that I start purchasing these tools. Especially if I wanted to learn the machinist trade on the company's dime. About a year after hiring in, the company offered a machinist apprenticeship.

IMO, the purchasing of one's own tools should be a requirement if that person wants a job.

knc said:

When I started in the machinist trade, a tool list was given to me. It was expected that I start purchasing these tools. Especially if I wanted to learn the machinist trade on the company's dime. About a year after hiring in, the company offered a machinist apprenticeship.

IMO, the purchasing of one's own tools should be a requirement if that person wants a job.

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I think that's the key. You want to work, have tools. Once I got a little experience in the trade, when applying for a job I was asked if I had tools, and sometimes they wanted to see them.

I was expected to measure anything up to 6" with my own tools. After that, shop furnished tools.

If a man can't have and treat his own tools well, how could you expect him to treat yours properly?

I think tools should be a source of pride for the machinist/toolmaker. If they don't have it, they're probably not going to have pride in their work either.

People on the whole resent being told to do things, especially when it involves their own money. While you may have some success forcing them to buy tools, there may be a better way...

I have found in the shops where I have worked in the past that there is culture surrounding personal tools. Most employees will allow most of the other employees to borrow personal tools if it is understood that they will be cared for and returned clean and undamaged. However, if the tool is currently in-use by the owner of the tool, it cannot be borrowed. Further, after a certain number of "Can I use your XYZ?" the owner of said tool will eventually respond with "You use it more than I do! Go buy your own!" Thus, tool borrowing tends to be self-resolving with time.

Owning high quality precision tools should be an accomplishment that a person can look upon with a level of satisfaction and pride. Possibly by getting new hires started down that road, you could foster a "tool culture" within your shop.

A readily observable example of what I call tool culture can be seen in Snap-On mechanic's tools marketing. Car mechanics employed by dealerships often spend tens of thousands of dollars of their personal income on common stuff like wrenches and sockets. They will even attempt to out-do each other by purchasing more tools or bigger tool boxes. Snap-On has encouraged more experienced mechanics and thus better equipped mechanics to limit borrowing by including free tool box stickers which say "I own the best: Snap-On. Please don't ask to borrow."

If you can encourage that kind of tool culture at your shop, your employees will probably end up better equipped than if you forced them to buy a certain list of tools. They'll also enjoy the process of "collecting" and derive satisfaction from being well-equipped. Happy employees tend to be more productive than sour employees.

Owning personal tools in my shop is mandatory. I have a suggested list of what guys should have in their boxes.
However, I realize that buying tools is a huge expense, especially for an apprentice. So to help ease the burden, I set up a tool credit program. Guys are allowed to purchase up to 1 weeks’ pay worth of tools. I then take a deduction from their checks. I deduct the amount the employee thinks they can handle (some guys are $10 a week others $50, or more), the faster they pay off the tab, the sooner they can re order.

rj newbould said:

I think that's the key. You want to work, have tools. Once I got a little experience in the trade, when applying for a job I was asked if I had tools, and sometimes they wanted to see them.

I was expected to measure anything up to 6" with my own tools. After that, shop furnished tools.

If a man can't have and treat his own tools well, how could you expect him to treat yours properly?

I think tools should be a source of pride for the machinist/toolmaker. If they don't have it, they're probably not going to have pride in their work either.

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X2 RJ, and much better put than I could.

Like many here I need a complete set of tools at work and home. For years I work for family in a small machine shop / welding fab shop . I had helped grow the business and the shop provided tools necessary . Well as often happens the political climate changed . New job bigger company and Had to take home shop tools to work and buy complete set of tools to replace ouch . Now it drives me crazy when I do not have a complete set of collets at work and do at home .

I adapted a policy I used to have when I was civil service, Tool box was issued to me. Wasn’t always the best but was able to add tools needed by clearing with QA and adding to box inventory.

My company now- First year of employment; employee will use their own tools, they will be required to have draws silhouetted, inventoried, and inventory sheet in box that is checked weekly, but employee does daily ATAF (all tools accounted for) at end of jobs so lost tools doesn’t end up where it doesn’t belong, or lost god knows where.

I have point of use boxes that are checked out, these boxes have specialty tooling, and the higher end tools that a lot of people don’t have in their boxes. Once employee gets past 1 year he/she is issued a tool box, not some proto who ha, but a custom snap-on laser etched monster, that is built to a standard tool listing (so everyone is working with the same tools). Broken or worn tools are turned in to crib for replacement- all measurement gear is on a cal cycle, and consumables are a one for one trade out. Same tool inventory standards apply, and are checked often to make sure no one's walking off with tools.

Nice part is stick around long enough (15 yrs) - you keep the tool box, a kind of additional thank you for your many years of hard work. Or stick around tell retirement and get a pension & a tool box.

Might be complicated, but make a list of tools required for each pay grade or raise. You can't be moved up to "Machinist C" and $14 an hour unless you have X,Y,Z tools in your box. The place I learned at each class level change resulted in the expectation of purchasing more tools. New hires where given loaner micrometers, as soon as they passed probation and got another 35 cents (This was late 70's) you were supposed to buy a one inch micrometer and a 6" steel rule. Make it another 6 months and get 50 cents more you should buy a blade micrometer and 6" calipers. Guys that weren't adding tools as they moved up didn't move up as fast, and were deemed as not serious about their job, and got on managements bad side.
Mind you this was a screw machine shop with no bigger than 16mm round parts, so not a lot of inspection tools were needed.

IMO, there are certain basic tools that a person has to have to function at all- calipers, OD mics, depth mics, scales and stuff, but those can be had for very little. Anything perishable or that could be considered part of the machine, chucks and such, should be shop supplied. Beyond that, you better be offering a better pay rate and some benefits so people can afford to build up their box if you want anything beyond basic. Loans are just a way to put people in hopeless situations. With all the recent whining about how bad machinist pay is, how in the world do you expect someone just starting out, maybe married and with a kid on the way, to be investing many hundreds of dollars a year in tools? Heck, I just had the car serviced and the shop rate was $90/hour. Nothing exotic, that's just what it costs around here. The cost of living is beyond belief and regardless of what the government says, inflation seems very real. The low wages I see quoted on this board would barely keep somebody off food stamps, much less fill a tool box with shiny goodies.

CH

I realize I was one of the lucky ones... My uncle was a long time tool and die maker, and he had almost every tool imaginable. When he found out I wanted to follow in his footsteps, he put together a good starter set of tools for me in a Kennedy toolbox that his father started with... Complete with a cool Polish flag decal! He didn't give me everything though, because he wanted me to go out and get used to setting aside some money to buy tools for myself. I found something out very quickly... I love the quality of the old tools more than the stuff made today.

What I did, and still do, is keep an eye out on Craigslist for used tools being sold. Sometimes I get lucky and get to buy used machinist tools from a retiring t&d maker or machinist... Sometimes I get really lucky and find some things being sold from a former owner. Usually the price is very attractive, and I know the stuff was made to last. Hell, the tools I buy used will last me longer than anything I can get at horror freight, and they are often times cheaper.

To me, your tools are a reflection of how much you respect your job, and even yourself. If you can stand to use garbage tools, what does it say about your respect for the job? How can you expect others to take you seriously or respect the kind of work you do when you can't stand to buy good tools, or any at all? If a kid doesn't have enough pride to buy the tools, I would suggest that he doesn't have any interest in gaining entry into this trade... That's just my opinion though.

I may be the exception to the norm, but when I made the decision to open my own shop, I also thought that I would prefer to supply all the tools needed in my shop. Because of years of seeing fellow employees stuff their boxes full of company drills, endmills and carbide tooling (all of which mysteriously would disappear before these employees left the building)...I thought the way to get around that would be to supply all of the tools and keep employee boxes out of there.

Having said that, my friend Joe BEGGED me to let him bring his box in, and I finally relented, but I trust that he's not going anywhere with my tools.




Frank



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I'm always curious to see what others have in their boxes, what they find useful and why. It seems to me that people will build up their boxes with whats useful to them, and what they need. I'm at my third shop now, and always adding to the box. The first place I was at hired (and fired) a lot of people with little to no experience, in my time there I bought mics, caliper, indicator, hand tools. Second shop I was at had just finished implementing 5-S and no personal tools allowed. Common refrain when asking if anybody has tool whatever was "yeah, in my tool box--at home." Where I'm at now your tools are a reflection of what you do, and I guess to a certain extent what you intend to do. Most operators have a top box with the basics, some just bring a mic or 2 and a caliper to and from. Guys that do set-up will have more.

There was never any explicit 'you have to have xyz' for this or that, but they aren't going to assign you to set up if you don't have an indicator. There's a fuzzy line between what they provide and what's required. Some top guys don't have parallels in their box, but I can't stand sorting through mis-matched parallels to find a set so I have my own. At the same time I had a Kennedy roller box with a lot in it before I bought myself a $4 6" scale.

I think a good place to start is to think about what you expect to provide. Every place I've worked provided the cutting tools. Inspection tools that are specialized are provided but the basics aren't. It's not unreasonable to expect a guy to own 6"caliper, but you wouldn't expect an operator with 2 years experience to own a set of gauge pins .011 through 1.000, would you?

I've heard arguments from both sides for many years. My own opinion is general hand tools should be owned by the machinist, because everybody has their own favorite methods and tools for certain tasks. Measuring tools beyond scales and tape measures should be provided by the shop. I say that with the viewpoint of thinking the shop should not place its fate on the accuracy of an expensive measuring device that may not work properly but the owner doesn't want to spend big bucks on to replace. One thing that goes along with expecting your employees to own a well stocked box is paying them enough to make that happen. I don't know where you stand on pay, so it's just a comment, nothing more.

Never realized I had such a knack for starting fires in the 'ol blogosphere. Maybe I'll change my handle to "El Flamo"

Anyway, probably the best advice so far was the limited revolving tool loan. I think we found a way in quickbooks to track individual loans to employees that they can pay a bit out of their paycheck. I like the idea of paying it all off and then having the whole amount available again.

And, just because I can't seem to resist it, I've got to reply to 307Startup. I've provided tools before (I'm not talking about machine tools, collets, endmills) and I have one experience with them over, and over, and over. They get treated like junk. I make drawers & silhoettes for them, I set policies, I give warnings, and in the end if I get the same results. I have both types of guys in the shop right now. The ones that know exactly where each of their tools are at any time and what shape they're in, bought them on their own. If you can enforce that your guys take care of your shop equipment and tools, which you are providing them for free, with the same care and attention to detail that I'm sure you do, then congratulations it's working for you. It doesn't work here.

307startup said:

Your job is not a reflection of you, cupcake. It's a fucking position that required a warm-body so that the company could make money off your carcass. They didn't create it for you, it has nothing to do with you...guess what...you and every other employee ain't special. Just meat for the grinder.

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Are you kidding me? Yes a majority of companies out there do treat employees and just another pay number, but come on their quite a few businesses out there, mine included that fell their company is only as good as those who make it a company- those who work there.

I base machinist pay exclusively on productivity, irrespective of experience, education or salary history. A machinist with their own tools will inherently be more productive. Easy point to make. However, mics, calipers & indicators must pass calibration or be removed from the shop.

Regarding the comment of mgmt not having to buy materials. Some of us INVESTED tens of thousands in an education to design the machines and parts that fuel this industry. That knowledge is akin to the tools a tradesmen INVESTS in. We both take our careers serious and have security in knowing we possess something valuable enough to create a demand for our services.

307startup said:

Your job is not a reflection of you, cupcake. It's a fucking position that required a warm-body so that the company could make money off your carcass. They didn't create it for you, it has nothing to do with you...guess what...you and every other employee ain't special. Just meat for the grinder.

Respect for the job? Seriously, this shit? Let me guess...you are LUCKY to have a job so that you can buy the things you need? Your life has been commoditized and you're drinking the Kool-Aid faster than they can pour it. Now you want to PAY to help them make money? Holy Fuck, every company would LOVE to have employees like that.

Your opinion doesn't count for shit, you are a fucking corporate cheerleader humping your master's leg. That kid that doesn't buy tools has something more important to do with the money he EARNED...like spend it on whatever else he wants...because I'm sure his $10/hr doesnt go far in this economy. Stop reinforcing the retarded belief that possessions somehow make you a better person. I guarantee your tools don't make you a better machinist than me. I have my own shop and have purchased or built everything. I don't expect my employees to foot the bill for me, I expect them to perform the task I give them.

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Yea, and if it wasn't for the guy who started that business, I wouldn't have a job and be making money for myself, would I? You think I give a shit what the bosses motive is? Aren't we all motivated by the same thing in this country? As long as the checks don't bounce, I'll be in the next day, and working hard just like the day before, thank you.

Just because you were jaded by the principles of economics, and possibly your decision to enter this line of work, doesn't mean all good workers are kiss asses. Some of us enjoy the environment, and would rather not work in any other line of work.

And I'll tell you something else... My family busted their asses in shops and factories all their lives to achieve a middle class standing. They climbed the rungs of the ladder the hard way, and gained the respect of their employers. Are you going to fault them too? Where the hell would our industry be if people didn't have a little pride in their work, and a bit more drive. I'm glad they instilled these simple values in me, as they have always served me very well in my young life.

So yes, I will buy tools that make me a more efficient worker. I consider my work, and the quality of it a strong reflection of who I am. Yes, I am just a warm body, but I can still have pride in something at least.

Thinking about it... You attitude is indicative of the union mentality that has ravaged my state. I can't wait to get the hell out of here, and watch this ship sink from a distance.

307startup said:

Never worked for a union, with a union or around a union. I live in a right-to-starve...er, right-to-work state. I didn't do anything to contribute to the shit-hole you live in. I've busted my ass for ungrateful employers and slowly socked away enough cash to forge my own go. I can honestly say that I will never again miss the entitlement attitude that machine shop owners have with regards to me reinvesting my paycheck in their business only to continue receiving the same pay. Anybody who cheerleads for THAT is part of the problem, not the solution.

Oh well, at least I treat my guys like real live PEOPLE and encourage them to keep all of their money for what they WANT to spend it on. I pay them a fair wage and don't expect any more loyalty from them than what I give in return. I'm fortunate to have good employees who give me a good day's performance, all to make me more money than I can make by myself. I'm realistic about the situation and don't try to manipulate them for my own sake.

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I'm glad to hear that you pay what you believe to be a fair wage. Not enough shops here offer that here anymore... Mostly because the fair wage paying shops have all but closed up here.

But the fact of the matter is, the guy who starts the shop is offering to put in great time and effort to make money. When he can't do it all himself, he offers to pay someone to do some of the work. Often times, the worker he hires does not have the knowledge or desire to make money at what he's good at... He might be able to make the parts, but he has no clue how to get money for them. The boss than becomes the means to his end. It's a simple energy exchange... You do the work and boss turns work into money. The boss would be limited without the worker, and the worker would be broke without the boss. That's the way I see it. I don't expect you to see it my way, but I can live with that.