Custom sent wrong drawing. Who should pay?
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    Default Custom sent wrong drawing. Who should pay?

    Ok this started a few months ago but it came to a head today. Little back story about prints in question.

    When the customer brought the prints in we looked at them and found that they couldn't be right as in if you use his numbers to construct a model they can't all fit. Think defining all 3 sides of a triangle but not using math to reference the 3rd side. So it took me (production manager) my coworker (plant supervisor) and the owner to get him to understand we can't make these to "print". If we were allowed to fudge one number(on a clearance angle) we can make it work. He says OK and we reluctantly start making them only a couple of each though since PS and I don't think this is going to end well. We tell him we have some samples and to get an ok from his customer. They work so we run em'.

    So that what we were doing for each new size we run a sample set get the customer ok and bang them out. Well about a 1 1/2 months ago the customer decided that this was not fast enough so he brought us the print that they were checking it with. That's right they were not even checking the parts with a caliper or anything they would put a print over a light box throw our part up and if the holes and outside profile fit it was good. Internally checking +/-0.005 to the print that they gave us but he says check it with the print and run it no need to do the test cycle. So we ended up doing both check it with a caliper and the first few with the print.

    So we are working with the original dimension prints and these light box prints that have no other information on them, no part number no rev nothing just a shape.

    So he comes in picks up 50 of the latest parts brings them to the customer and they reject them. He brings them back and say customer rejects them here is the light box print they used. We throw them up and ya our holes don't match. So we get out the measuring tools and start measuring to see where we went wrong and damn it our numbers match the print to +/-0.003 MAX. So now were scratching our heads why don't these parts match. We get out our lightbox print and they are bang on.

    Call the customer to come see what we found walk him though how to measure the parts show him our light box print and then the one he originally gave us he sees we are right to the print we have.

    So as it turns out the end customer changed the drawing with an updated revision AFTER they sent the parts out to get made. They never told our customer and they never told us. They just rejected the parts when they came in.

    So now here is the discussion between the PS and I. We agree that we want to remake the parts but I say we should not have to eat the entire cost of these now scrapped parts because we made the parts to print and its not our fault that they changed their mind after the fact without telling anyone. He says we should just shut up eat it this time but next time this customer comes in we will think about either getting our money back with added cost or just telling him no if he doesn't like the price.

    So what would you do?
    Just eat the cost and maybe make it up later?
    Try to get at least partial payment for what is technically a good order?

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    What are the costs involved? $5 in material and an hour of time? Eat it. $5000 in material and a week of spindle time, they pay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tjd10684 View Post
    So now here is the discussion between the PS and I. We agree that we want to remake the parts but I say we should not have to eat the entire cost of these now scrapped parts because we made the parts to print and its not our fault that they changed their mind after the fact without telling anyone. He says we should just shut up eat it this time but next time this customer comes in we will think about either getting our money back with added cost or just telling him no if he doesn't like the price.

    So what would you do?
    Just eat the cost and maybe make it up later?
    Try to get at least partial payment for what is technically a good order?
    Why is charge the full amount for the good parts (and they are good parts, per what was ordered), and requesting a new PO for the new part off the table?

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    What is a "light box"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mneuro View Post
    What are the costs involved? $5 in material and an hour of time? Eat it. $5000 in material and a week of spindle time, they pay.
    Were talking 1750 in material about 3 days of waterjet time and about a week of spindle time.

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    Your customer owes you the full amount and their customer owes them the full amount.

    And yes charge them more next time, to compensate for the lost time involved, past and likely future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    What is a "light box"?
    Maybe its called something else but think of the thing a doctor would put an x ray on to view it. They print the part on some kind of thinner paper (vellum maybe) put it on the box and put the part on top.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fish On View Post
    Why is charge the full amount for the good parts (and they are good parts, per what was ordered), and requesting a new PO for the new part off the table?
    I was told I was being a dick when I suggested that lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    What is a "light box"?
    Optical comparator I imagine.

    If your customer asked for parts to print A and their customer reject it because they wanted print B it's not that complicated. I've made parts numerous times to the wrong print because my customer's customer didn't have their pants on straight and I'm a notorious softie and I always get paid for the "bad" parts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mud View Post
    Your customer owes you the full amount and their customer owes them the full amount.

    And yes charge them more next time, to compensate for the lost time involved, past and likely future.
    Ya the customer used to have another shop making this part and I'm starting to think I know why the other shop USED TO make this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    What is a "light box"?
    one that's easier to lift.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tjd10684 View Post
    Ya the customer used to have another shop making this part and I'm starting to think I know why the other shop USED TO make this.
    Mud has it right, this is in no way your fault and you should be paid in full. If the response of the intermediary is "suck it up", you need to get paid and then "fire" them, or at least work only on a cash up front basis.

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    Is there any paper trail showing who made changes and who approved them? If so I'd stand by them. This is a prime example for WHY that paperwork exists.

    If not, it really depends on the book-keeping side: If the parts are not that expensive and you paying for it will mean more business in the long run, I'd say to eat it once and be sure they know that you are doing so because you want their business. Don't be rude about it, but they need to know that you're trying to help them out even though a problem occurred. If it's expensive and they're not sure how much more there will be, then I'd charge it to them.

    You can't let being a "good guy" get in the way of staying in business, but you also shouldn't get ahead at others expense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tjd10684 View Post
    Were talking 1750 in material about 3 days of waterjet time and about a week of spindle time.
    If this is a very profitable customer, I would suggest they cover the material, and you eat the cost of labor. Just to maintain the relationship. If just a normal customer I would make them pay for good parts as others have suggested.

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    This is why you make sure everything is documented, even verbal conversations, back them up with an email. Part and rev numbers on the prints and POs to cover your ass, and ONLY make parts to print. If the print needs changing to make good parts GET THE PRINT CHANGED! It sounds like this is an expensive, and dumb, way to learn this.

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    I would expect to get paid for my work, I would not eat one penny of that foul-up.

    I would also better document the orders going forward. A drawing with a revision number, and a PO with the revision number, they must match.

    A mylar or vellum used for comparing must also have the part number and revision number, even if the rest of it is just profiles.

    Happy to make parts for people, but it's their responsibility to tell me what they want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by M.B. Naegle View Post
    Is there any paper trail showing who made changes and who approved them? If so I'd stand by them. This is a prime example for WHY that paperwork exists.

    If not, it really depends on the book-keeping side: If the parts are not that expensive and you paying for it will mean more business in the long run, I'd say to eat it once and be sure they know that you are doing so because you want their business. Don't be rude about it, but they need to know that you're trying to help them out even though a problem occurred. If it's expensive and they're not sure how much more there will be, then I'd charge it to them.

    You can't let being a "good guy" get in the way of staying in business, but you also shouldn't get ahead at others expense.
    We got the order for this huge blanket, about 20 different sizes with qtys ranging from 300 - 50 back around the middle of May we have been working on various sizes since then. Our drawing has a revision dated in April. The drawing that we just saw today has another revision dated in June. We had the order before the new revision and we also told the customer what we were working on next at least 2 weeks in advance of actually working on it so he had time to find out if there was a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by mneuro View Post
    If this is a very profitable customer, I would suggest they cover the material, and you eat the cost of labor. Just to maintain the relationship. If just a normal customer I would make them pay for good parts as others have suggested.
    They are actually a new customer this year and so far they have been 50/50 pain/profit. This latest one though is putting them more at a 60/40.

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    My experiences with this is to sit down with the end user and you customer, point out to the end user the print that you were working to and the parts. If the end user is at all respectable, they will realize they screwed up and take ownership.

    Tom

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    My experiences with this is to sit down with the end user and you customer, point out to the end user the print that you were working to and the parts. If the end user is at all respectable, they will realize they screwed up and take ownership.

    Tom
    I both agree and disagree with this. Yeah, it would be nice if everyone sits down in a room and works it all out but that's not really your responsibility.

    You really have no responsibility (legally) to the end user as your contract is with the customer. He is making money contracting work out with you, it's his responsibility to make sure the end user is giving the correct information as well as getting the correct parts. This is what he is exactly what he is being paid for.

    I do believe it is good business to try and keep everyone in the loop happy but eating someone else mistake does not help your bottom line in the long run.

    JMHO

    -Ron

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    Sometimes I think machinists have "battered wife syndrome", as we're forced to take things like the above (or parts damaged during anodize, etc.) and just deal with it. That ain't right, and this is a very clear case where the shop has no blame at all and should not have to bear any of the costs.

    Why the heck didn't I become a plumber? Still have to deal with shit, but at least I'd be better paid for it...

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