Customer Wants the Files

Houdini · Oct 31, 2018

I have a customer we engineered, designed, manufactured numerous injection molds for. And we ran the molds.
We had a fire and the shop is gone.
All customers are having their molds ran somewhere else now.
Customer wants to modify these molds, and also duplicate the molds them selves.

I was the head Engineer/Machinist/IT Network Administrator at that shop, and was given all the customer files, encase with "MY" new shop, the customers wanted to have me do work for them.

Customer wants all the CAD/CAD engineering, programming for cutting, everything.

But he only paid to have a mold made, he doesnt own the files?, He would have to pay for the files?, as we would be at a loss of ever doing any work on those molds or the duplication, and they would have CAD,CAM files for FREE?

Am I in the wrong or do you agree.

DMF_TomB · Oct 31, 2018

if customers asks for files and you refuse then customer can not do any more business with you obviously.
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many files are technical and not the easiest for someone who did not create the files to easily understand them. customer may want a copy of the files as a form of backup protection from loss of files by having their own copy.

J Gilles · Oct 31, 2018

I think it depends on how the original work was written up. If it didn't included the engineering and drawings, I would think they don't own it. The transfer between your old employer and your shop might have some grey areas around it, but that isn't their concern.

Just my thoughts from reading about these things on here over the last few years. I'm sure some of the shop owners will have more detailed responses.

DMF_TomB · Oct 31, 2018

usually future work with a customer is more valuable than previous work done.
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i have invented many machine modifications and when i got layed off job they wanted all the modifications crated up and ship to other factory for them to look at. which i did.
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if i refused i would have not been given separation pay and retirement pay worth over $15,000 a year, each year for rest of my life AND old boss would not have been willing to act as a job reference for any new job i applied for.
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....after 2 years at new job i make more money per year. this year alone heading to $30,000 MORE in pay each year than old job.
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my experience best to keep customer and old boss happy. usually worth it.
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had other job not finished and they wanted all parts made and drawings put on cart and brought to them which i did. same job lay off. i made parts for many different customers. never would i refuse the request and piss off any customer.
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i have been hired by people i worked for decades earlier. leave a good impression and often they will remember you when hiring

paul39 · Oct 31, 2018

Customer Wants the Files. Looks to me as you are screwed if you do give them up and screwed if you don't. I think you would have slightly more chance of getting additional business from them if you give them the files. If the people making the molds now raise price, screw up, long delivery, etc. might shift work to you.

Paul

Guest · Oct 31, 2018

DMF_TomB said:
usually future work with a customer is more valuable than previous work done.
.
i have invented many machine modifications and when i got layed off job they wanted all the modifications crated up and ship to other factory for them to look at. which i did.
.
if i refused i would have not been given separation pay and retirement pay worth over $15,000 a year, each year for rest of my life AND old boss would not have been willing to act as a job reference for any new job i applied for.
.
....after 2 years at new job i make more money per year. this year alone heading to $30,000 MORE in pay each year than old job.
.
my experience best to keep customer and old boss happy. usually worth it.
.
had other job not finished and they wanted all parts made and drawings put on cart and brought to them which i did. same job lay off. i made parts for many different customers. never would i refuse the request and piss off any customer.
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i have been hired by people i worked for decades earlier. leave a good impression and often they will remember you when hiring

Read my lips "Nobody cares how much money you make", yet you keep bringing it up." You seem to frequently seem to appear in the shop owner and management threads of which you are neither. Also once again you make another useless post, get another hobby.

As to the OP I am sure how the original purchase order and invoice were written dictates the legality of the situation. Unless there was a specific line item charge for creating files they have no right to them. Even in that cause what could they do if you told them to pound sand. I am assuming from your post the files were created and used under an employer that is no longer in business.

chip_maker · Oct 31, 2018

Was the customer charged for the cost of all the programing and design etc.? If yes I would say they own them.

DMF_TomB · Oct 31, 2018

i have created many cad and cam files before and never found it worth refusing a customer request for the files.
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i have met many who worry about job security and protecting their job to the point they loose their job faster trying to protect their job.

Booze Daily · Oct 31, 2018

DMF_TomB said:
i have created many cad and cam files before and never found it worth refusing a customer request for the files.
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i have met many who worry about job security and protecting their job to the point they loose their job faster trying to protect their job.

You are an employee. Your boss requested the files. End of story.

To the OP, does he know exactly what you have? If not, what exactly is he expecting you to give him?
I've helped customers in a bind where they gave me matl and CNC programs to run the job and you know what? The programs were junk. I ended up starting from scratch anyway.

DMF_TomB · Oct 31, 2018

Booze Daily said:
You are an employee. Your boss requested the files. End of story.

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yes but big company each department has different boss. so one department is a customer for a different department.
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i often seen request refused or cannot find the files when asked. i personally have not found it worth it.
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i got hired at a job that 57 others applied for same job. hiring boss remembered me from 25 years earlier. just saying guy you refuse today might be the hiring guy at the next job in the future.

CarbideBob · Oct 31, 2018

If the original POs called out engineering and design then yes.
If they only paid for the molds then no.
In this case the design is IP that you own.
Been through this with a customer who wanted prints.
When questioned on a charge they said point blank "We don't pay for engineering on custom designs".
Bob

kustomizingkid · Oct 31, 2018

So whats the deal with you being given all this info for your own use in the future? I feel like you have an opportunity to do some consulting but only if you cleared all that with the old owners... seems like something that has the potential to be turned into a great opportunity.

DanielG · Oct 31, 2018

You may be asking the wrong question.

It sounds like they only stopped using your old company because the place burned down. From their standpoint, they had a shop that could handle a molded part from start to finish. That went away so they had to find a new shop. If the molds need to be modified, new ones made, etc. and the old shop is out of business, why not ask for the information.

Do they know your capabilities? You presumably know the molds, how they were designed, manufactured, etc., so you should be in a good position to do the modifications. Have you tried selling them on it? Do they even know you took over that part of the business. A conversation along the lines of "after the fire, my company Acme Molds LLC took over the mold-building and repair business. Here are our capabilities and here's a quote to build another of these molds" may go a long way.

tl;dr: do they actually want/need the files or are they just trying to salvage what they can after a key supplier burned down and went out of business? Can you make them a customer?

SteveBausch · Oct 31, 2018

Software escrow is an option.

Source code escrow - Wikipedia

Illinoyance · Oct 31, 2018

The files were created by another company, not by you. I don't think you would be obligated to furnish the files. I would offer to provide the files for the cost of retrieval, copying, etc. Definitely retain the original files.

If you do not furnish the files you certainly will not get any work from your former emoloyer's customers. If you do furnish the files there is a chance you MIGHT get some work.

hanermo · Oct 31, 2018

From the OP.
HE personally had no contract with the past job.
Given fact.

The OP may give, or not give, or charge, or license any designs as he wants and has zero continuance with the old firm.

The client in these cases never works fair and never continuous awarding work to the OP.
They state, hint, promise, whatever but don´t put in POs.
BTDTHTTS.

The OP should storm the client HQ asking for a resolution in writing.
They commit to buy something now, and to prefer new OP bids in the future.
And pay now, something.

Unless the client agrees to a normal working agreement nothing good will ever come from this.
Conversely, the OP has a great chance to get a great on-going supply deal going, if he is smart professional and prepared.

IME, wide experience, the suppliers are always screwed by the big co. and big companies.
The OP can write it off, or stick to his guns on fair new trade ongoing, written agreement.

converterking · Oct 31, 2018

Give him all the files on an encrypted usb drive. Offer to sell him the password.

adama · Oct 31, 2018

IME it can pay to be helpful, but only so far, like if you can easily retrieve the drawings and there good old 2d data, send em over ( i like doing so as PDF's so they can't fuck with them with out massive effort or change em into solid step body step files etc!!), there's no way in hell i would send out any of my cam or native cad. That said, i generally go out of my way to avoid this kinda stuff, second you send files if there's stuff that's wrong in them, no one thanks you for trying to help. You can then end up spending hours explaining and hand holding too, Again if they want consultation give them a price and options if you wish, but make this clear.

If this is a customer that has the potential for more work it can sometimes pay off to go the extra mile, but its already sounding like its not or you would not have even asked. That said, rather than say no, its generally better to say you don't have thoes even if you do than decline the request, ones at least trying to be helpful - leaves some bridges unburnt. Then again if there a ass hole, i have been known to tell people NO!

JS · Oct 31, 2018

What files?

CarbideBob · Oct 31, 2018

Are you going to get work from this customer or do they need the data to "shop around".
Working with them can be a plus or a zero.
If you try to hold them captive they might not respond well. Not much made in the world that can't be reverse engineered.
If they are gonna go elsewhere anyways you have no incentive to play.
You need to be close to the customer and not just your contact point guy.
It could be a goldmine with the door open or you could get the shaft.
You do sit in kind of a position to "save" them. Many will respond nicely to such help.
The best thing you can do for a potential customer is provide help and ease their job and worries.
Most people will remember when you took the stress off them. There is no better way to get a lifelong customer than taking a monkey of his/her back.

If you help, what do you lose? Are you giving away work? Will you hold the contracts if you keep the IP proprietary?
Bob

Customer Wants the Files

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