Cutter vending machines any positive experiences?

Good morning everyone:
I've just been tasked with setting up an R&D lab for a local company I've spent the last couple of years with, making parts and directing other shops.
Now they want to be able to do their own R&D machining, mostly to improve their turnaround time with new iterations of prototypes, so I get to equip a brand new shop and get it all set up and run it for them.
I also get to train the new hires including the interns, apprentices and engineers, so I'm pleased and excited to be participating with them as their company grows.

They are a great company to deal with and full of bright young engineers and technicians, but they want to have an old fart like me around to make the lab run smoothly and remain productive.
I'm about ready to retire from running my own shop full time (health problems) but I'll keep my man cave for as long as it's still safe for me to operate the machines.
My day job is going to be at the new place and somebody else can do the accounting, and the fundraising and the business management and etc etc.

One of the things I need to start thinking about is tooling management, and I want to make it as painless for myself as I can.
Once upon a time, some of the larger tooling suppliers offered vending machines you could park in your shop and they would be stocked by the tooling supplier whenever the machine called them on the internet.
They were basically inventory management machines, and you'd be billed for whatever you took out of them.
Access was controlled with keycodes you could issue to authorized users and it would track who took out what.
I don't see them offered by the local guys anymore.

Did these machines fall out of favour?
Anyone still using them in your shops?
Any tales about them...good or bad?

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining

We use them kn the production floor. I haven't heard any complaints. We also have drawers that you have to input the numbers and it let's you take it out.

We don't have this in the toolroom though.

The biggest benefit is keeping track of employees who are trashing cutters.

One advantage if you have a lot of cutting tools is that it takes your tool inventory cost out of your pocketbook and puts it in the distributors.
Also if you obsolete a tool you have no dead inventory on hand.

Two ways to do it. One is you buy the machine and have whatever from whomever you like put in it.
Second is a distributor or manufacture puts in it for free or a fee and they put only their stuff in it.
Number two way cheaper up front but I think you can see the downside.
Bob
( I have many stories as I designed, built, and sold the first of the candy bar type machines)

We have used them from two different vendors, and I definitely like it. Usually it’s a free service from the distributor. We had one from MSC, and switched to Tool Crib (a local distributor in Knoxville). Both worked well. I would definitely go with a vending machine, having a tool crib attendant or manually keeping track of tool inventory is just prone to failure right when you need it! It also makes the distributor you pick a lot more friendly and able to play ball with you!

It’s great for cash flow if you can do it via consignment - IOW you don’t pay for a tool until it’s pulled to use, even if it’s in the machine. Just remember that usually that comes with a time limit, if you have a consigned item in your machine for whatever time they set (6 months etc.) you buy it anyway.

There are different kinds of machines too that suit different shops. Ours is actually a Kennametal ToolBoss, works really well for a moderately disorganized job shop.

Job Shopper TN said:

... IOW you don’t pay for a tool until it’s pulled to use, even if it’s in the machine. Just remember that usually that comes with a time limit, if you have a consigned item in your machine for whatever time they set (6 months etc.) you buy it anyway.

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I find this consignment practice disgusting but do understand it to some point as no one wants to eat unused tools. The old it is in the fine print deal.
This puts the stock and management of it outside. Hopefully they are paying attention to your use and runs of tools.
In auto I'd get weekly reports of parts built and a prediction of the next month or two. This would help balance inventory and runs on my end.
Put you candy bars onto my floor all day long. If I do not want to eat them I will not pay for them.
Bob

Previous place I had a Lista cabinet with the FastTrack inventory management system by Productivity. We owned what was in the drawers, but the system kept track of what we used, and made it easy to reorder when stock got low.

We too use FastTrack. You can set min and reorder qtys. One click and you can can get a report of what needs to be ordered. Very pleased with this system.

Over in China we usually go with a girl. Maybe not as efficient but a lot more pleasant to deal with.

Job Shopper TN said:

We have used them from two different vendors, and I definitely like it. Usually it’s a free service from the distributor. ..
I would definitely go with a vending machine, having a tool crib attendant or manually keeping track of tool inventory is just prone to failure right when you need it! It also makes the distributor you pick a lot more friendly and able to play ball with you!

It’s great for cash flow if you can do it via consignment - IOW you don’t pay for a tool until it’s pulled to use, even if it’s in the machine.

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Curious to know what your definition of "free" is?
You have tens of thousands $ worth of tools at your immediate disposal, you don't have to pay for it until you use it AND to boot,
you don't even have to worry about maintaining it because someone else is doing it for you.
You think all that is coming to you at no cost?

OTOH ....
Vending machines make all the sense in the world for larger shops where having a machine down for a shift or perhaps three shifts due to a missing bog standard tool is infinitely more expensive!
But even there, they typically contain only the common tools the shop use which may work for 90% of the parts produced, certainly does not eliminate the need for in-house inventory control.


Marcus ...


In an R&D lab, I really don't know what a vending machine can offer that a properly stacked LISTA cabinet or two cannot do.
Establishing the required tools and inventory levels is relatively easy for a large, production shop. All they have to do is interrogate at their tooling invoices for the last few years.
In R&D, there is a very high likelihood that each new one-off will require some non-inventoried "Special Tool #5" to complete.

We use both the Matrix system from ISCAR and the similar system from Guhring. Both work well. I prefer the ISCAR Matrix system. We own the machines and stock them ourselves (well, the tool crib does), but I've heard they're pretty decent if you let them manage the inventory, too.

I've been on every side of this. User of vending systems, worked for the distributor, worked for the carbide mfgr.

In an R&D shop, I'd say these have nearly no business being there.

Start with a few Lista type cabinets, and stock them with a variety of taps, tap-drills, drill indexes, and common & extended-reach length end-mills.

You're going to come up with a list that's way to big to fit inside a coil-type vending machine. Carousel type machines will hold more SKU's, but less qty. per item.




And buy a label maker. Label the drawer, and perhaps leave a laminated "Kan-Ban" card in the bottom with the Manufacturer, Manufacturer's part number, dealer/vendor, dealer/ vendor's part number, and order points & order quantities.. Put (2) copies in the bin. One taped to the bottom, and a separate card that gets pulled from the bin, and placed on the tool buyer's desk (Yours...) when the drawer gets low, and it's time to re-order.



There's no need to invest a lot of money in fancy tooling either. Start with general-purpose HSS/cobalt split-point drills, and inexpensive spiral-point and spiral-flute taps. That will let you build a starter set of consumable tooling rather inexpensively.

Once you start to notice a trend in materials, then you can begin shifting your inventory to match.





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Adding vending actually doesn't increase the per-tool cost that much, or any at all. The vendor knows that once you have the vending system in place, that it's more convenient for you to just keep doing business with them.

Trouble is, they have a $6-10,000 vending machine to pay for. So there is usually a minimum yearly spend before they become interested. A good vendor will be forthcoming with this info, as there's really no reason to hide those facts from the customer.


But, in your case, I'd say it doesn't make much sense. Too many SKU's, and too little repeat-ordering. Vending favors repeat orders.

The benefits have been covered by others. When setup well, they work well. Though, I feel they are more for the type of shop where tying tool usage to specific jobs and users is necessary for cost analysis and estimating.

I recently re-organized our tool cabinets(lista) and we are also an R&D prototyping shop. Our standard set of tools is essentially incorporated into our shop rate. The only time we charge more for tools is when we need to order something specific that our general tools can't do or can't be modified to do. I've incorporated a barcode scanner system to help with restocking what's low every week or two. For now it works relatively good. We may add a vending machine with time, we just aren't at that point yet.

My advice is if you get a system setup, think of it as storing all your general use and highly used products. I say that because unless you order TONS of tools, you will only get one cabinet for free and any additional are usually charged for. Depends on the vendor though. You should also have a list of what these items should be and have your tool vendor manage stocking it and adding/removing new/old items. Taking the time to restock it yourself is time you have to pay someone to do it. Most vendors can send a guy out for free. If you choose to manage add/removing items yourself, it can be even more time consuming. And if you incorporate these tools into your CAM system, then you may be adding the same data to two locations if there is no easy way to share it between the two databases.

I worked at a shop where if I needed to order a special tool, I HAD to add it to the CAM sytstem, MSC vending machine, and the tool presetter library which took about 1hr to do for each tool. Generating pictures, drawing up the tool, assigning a number in each system that cross references the other systems. Yeah, never doing that again.

tldr; If you get a vending machine, have your tool supplier manage it. Otherwise it could be more work than the benefit would provide.

CarbideBob said:

One advantage if you have a lot of cutting tools is that it takes your tool inventory cost out of your pocketbook and puts it in the distributors.
Also if you obsolete a tool you have no dead inventory on hand.

Two ways to do it. One is you buy the machine and have whatever from whomever you like put in it.
Second is a distributor or manufacture puts in it for free or a fee and they put only their stuff in it.
Number two way cheaper up front but I think you can see the downside.
Bob
( I have many stories as I designed, built, and sold the first of the candy bar type machines)

Click to expand...

care to share them? i'm sure many would love to hear.

Good morning Everyone:
Thank you very much for all your excellent input...I knew I'd get some really useful feedback from those who have been there and done that.
So the consensus opinion seems to be that I will have to manage the inventory by one means or another (instead of getting the vendor to do it)...maybe by setting up a system, tuning it to make it work smoothly, and then delegating the maintenance of it to someone else.

My first inclination was to do as many suggest...a set of drawer cabinets, well organized, with access restricted to those with a legitimate need, and an inventory tracking method that's simple and works.

The way I do it in my own shop is to have a bunch of little U-Line drawer cabinets sitting on shelves with small individual drawers in them, one for each item I stock in multiples (cutters, reamers, drills, taps, polishing mops etc etc).
When I get below an inventory threshold I just turn the drawer back to front, so when it's time to order I can just pull the "low stock" drawers out, see what's still in them, and set up my order.
When the first one is empty I set up and place the order to fill everything back up again.
Then I just turn the drawers around again.

That works well for me in my small, one man shop.
I'm not so sure it would work with a dozen engineers and a couple of engineer interns and a couple of technicians all muddling about, and dipping indiscriminately into the cabinets.

I personally hate draconian control, but I can see where it's going to be useful for this circumstance if I want to keep this thing running smoothly.

I have another problem and that is to set up a training regimen so the less experienced participants don't cut their fingers off and fuck up the gear.
Maybe I can integrate the two...make the beginners present a processing plan to me (or a guy I hire), make them fill out a BOM for the tooling, and then release the machine and the tooling on a job-by-job basis with one of us holding hands and mentoring the job.
This forces them to think about their designs and learn something, so hopefully they get more capable over time until I can trust them not to make too many expensive mistakes.
This would also be a way to keep the "Government Jobs" at bay. (Not that I want to totally discourage this, I just don't want to have to put on bandages, drive people to hospital and fill out reports)

So many new things to get good at...it's an interesting time for me!

Thanks for all the feedback...this is why I come here!

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining

barbter said:

Downside was consumable bill skyrocketed, because usable tools were always swapped out and nice and shiny new ones set for the start of every new job.
Buckets of part worn inserts/cutters laying around everywhere - many $000,s of usable tooling....

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What I did was when unloading a used cutter that was still "good", I'd put it back in the Lista drawer but not in its tube. I did not check those cutters back in, so they didn't count towards inventory, but were free to the next job that could use them.

Congrats on the new opportunity!

For our highest consumables (plasma) we have a simple cabinet that the two suppliers check weekly and keep filled. Like a vending machine without all the internet’s and codes.

We have had one for several years for taps, inserts, end mills, and a few other items. We own the inventory, they own the machine. Not the least expensive price per item, but with the ease of reordering and never having someone have to wait for a cutter to do a job, well worth it in a job shop. Each employee has his pin number, they want two 1/4 -20 taps, the drawer with dividers opens only far enough to get 2 taps. They send me an email with the correct part number and reorder quantity when minimum quantity is reached, really convenient and fast to reorder. I have my administrative assistant fill machine when stock comes in, foolproof part number / drawer number system (all done with bar code reader). You scan the packing slip, appropriate drawer opens, drop in new inventory. Great for a job shop where not having the right tool at the right time can cause problems. We very seldom have to ship anything overnight any more.

RJT said:

We have had one for several years for taps, inserts, end mills, and a few other items.

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Which system is that?

With the possibility of getting flamed, MSC. They have done their homework, it is a very reliable system. We don't pay catalog prices, but as I said, if you look at price per insert only, it's not the least expensive option. The value is in the total cost of having what you need when you need it. Well worth it to me. I know others have horror stories about MSC, but we have been a regular customer for over 20 years. The rare mix up has been handled quickly and professionally. 98% of the time we have orders next day (without overnight shipping charges). Free freight on orders over $100.00 . I like McMasters website better, but I prefer knowing the brand I am buying.