Dangerous times

Labor management computers in a job shop environment create a safety hazard for Manual machinist. I spent 6 months in a hydraulic repair shop that had implemented a computer program to track labor , approximately a year before I started working there. Day one I noticed a major issue the times that were set for producing the parts were absolutely minimal many were second part times. They left no time for errors , tool wear , or safety. The machines they had were not well maintained many were like a demolition derby car on Sunday morning. As for the "machinists" they had out of 30 only 3 had been there more then a year , one was retired and showed up for beer money another was just a few months from retiring and the 3rd was nothing but a gorilla thug machinist. You were assigned a job which usually had to be searched for , you sign in on the computer look at the time and tried to rack your brain to figure out how to get it done in time. Problem was the times had been averaged by the program without regard to 1st or second parts , it had no regard for the willingness of a gorilla thug machinist to risk their lives health or personal safety , or their disregard for normal machining practice. Speed was the only factor that mattered. Parts were assigned times based on Cnc machines in some cases. The supervisor would bet some guy they couldn't finish the part in ridiculous times to shorten the time given by the computer. And we all know that gorilla thug machinist that would do everthing they could to do the job in half the time regardless of what they destroyed in the process.

I don't think the computers are the problem. When it comes to safety, don't let yourself feel pressured to work faster than you can safely. That is on you and no one else.

WTF is a gorilla thug machinist? Almost sounds like a good thing to me. He's not OG, he's OM?

Sounds like a good place,
To not walk but run for the exit!!

Don't be intimidated by the computer. What's the real consequence of taking longer to make the part properly and safely when it takes longer than the computer says? Be honest. There are no real consequences. You'll still work there tomorrow and you'll still get paid on Friday. Do the job the way you know you need to and don't let the computer screw with your head.

bugerbeanjohnson said:

Labor management computers in a job shop environment create a safety hazard for Manual machinist. I spent 6 months in a hydraulic repair shop that had implemented a computer program to track labor , approximately a year before I started working there. Day one I noticed a major issue the times that were set for producing the parts were absolutely minimal many were second part times. They left no time for errors , tool wear , or safety. The machines they had were not well maintained many were like a demolition derby car on Sunday morning. As for the "machinists" they had out of 30 only 3 had been there more then a year , one was retired and showed up for beer money another was just a few months from retiring and the 3rd was nothing but a gorilla thug machinist. You were assigned a job which usually had to be searched for , you sign in on the computer look at the time and tried to rack your brain to figure out how to get it done in time. Problem was the times had been averaged by the program without regard to 1st or second parts , it had no regard for the willingness of a gorilla thug machinist to risk their lives health or personal safety , or their disregard for normal machining practice. Speed was the only factor that mattered. Parts were assigned times based on Cnc machines in some cases. The supervisor would bet some guy they couldn't finish the part in ridiculous times to shorten the time given by the computer. And we all know that gorilla thug machinist that would do everthing they could to do the job in half the time regardless of what they destroyed in the process.

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I suggest you go back to bed and get out on the right side as I have a hard time believing what you've written.

OTOH if what you've written is a correct picture then you just proven "There's one born every minute". And I don't mean employers!

bugerbeanjohnson said:

. . . I spent 6 months in a hydraulic repair shop that had implemented a computer program to track labor . . . As for the "machinists" they had out of 30 only 3 had been there more then a year , one was retired and showed up for beer money another was just a few months from retiring and the 3rd was nothing but a gorilla thug machinist. . . . it had no regard for the willingness of a gorilla thug machinist to risk their lives health or personal safety , or their disregard for normal machining practice. Speed was the only factor that mattered. Parts were assigned times based on Cnc machines in some cases. . . And we all know that gorilla thug machinist that would do everthing they could to do the job in half the time regardless of what they destroyed in the process.

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With 30 machinists, most of 'em new, sounds like these were really machine operators. With one guy (aka the gorilla thug machinist) willing to work his ass off and making everyone else look bad?

All in all, it sounds like a company trying to make a go of it without the capital investment really needed to compete and maybe somewhat brain dead management. Probably a good decision to move on. Not sure I'd be blaming the guy who worked hardest, though.

Sad to say, jobs that can be measured by a time standard are increasingly being outsourced, designed-around (e.g. throw-away hydraulic components), or automated. Not sure what the long term answer is, but at an individual level the answer is to acquire unique skills and put them to work in a place that respects them.

That's why I got out , it was a choice between being safe or getting fired . A gorilla thug machinist is that guy in the shop that is constantly burning the lips off of drill bits end mills lathe tools , running into the chuck , using hammers and extension bars to tighten vices . he doesn't care about the machines tools his personal safety or the safety of those around him. Its all about how fast he can get it done. and damn anybody that has to use it when he's done with it. Check FB there is a gorilla thug page there with pictures.

bugerbeanjohnson said:

T Check FB there is a gorilla thug page there with pictures.

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Okay, you lost me there. What/where/who is FB?

I think he means "Facebook". I suspect searching Facebook for "gorilla thug" would bring up a bunch of punk rockers, probably not the machinist(s) he's referring to.

I read the OP's post earlier, before I went to work, and I was scratching my head.
I just re-read the post and I'm still scratching my head.


Rex

For those of you not quite understanding the problem let me make an analogy . Pick a drive from point A to point B that takes an hour following the rules of the road and driving safely. You make that drive and consistently arrive in an hour vehicle intact and ready to go again. Some other guy (Gorilla thug machinist) makes that same drive and does it in 30 minutes ,the vehicle is over heating and has two bald tires now but once its cooled down it can still go again. Take the 2 times add them together and divide by 2 . The average time is 45 minutes . Can you still make that drive following the rules of the road and safely , to yourself and other people on the road? Now do it again you drive it in 45mins and the other guy does it in 30mins , now your down to 41mins and so on . .... On a production line or cnc the computer system works well , but in an job shop where the managements only concern is rolling out the jobs it promotes risk taking and allows Gorilla thug machinists to set the pace. The machines get worn down swiftly the tooling becomes scarce and people start getting written up and fired for not meeting the times allotted. All for the modern business ideal of making the percentage more profit each year.

bugerbeanjohnson said:

For those of you not quite understanding the problem let me make an analogy ..

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I understand the problem, got the jist from the first post.....
it's you that needs to use that little return key to the right side
of the keyboard a bit more often...Very hard on the eyes to follow you.

You're off to a poor start on PM with your "butt hurt" rant.

Put on your big boy pants and find a different employer.

IME, random rants are well tolerated on PM only from CONTRIBUTORS with some standing in the community (which you are not).

I'll somewhat sympathize with him. I used to work for that place... Old, worn out, un-maintained equipment, with only a spattering of old, worn out, tools scattered all over the place. We hired a "consultant" to help "lean" the shop and cut all the job times listed on the ERP job sheets.

Meanwhile, we advised that guys spending 20% of their time wondering the shop looking for drills, inserts, taps & gages could be greatly reduced down to almost nothing, if they would spend some money, and put the tools where they needed to be - by the machines. No, that was unthinkable...
(Think about that... 20% increase in spindle-utilization, just by buying the tools that you already need to have, and putting them where they need to be... And that 20% was by no means an exaggeration in this case.)

We suggested that we take a fresh look at our programs, and tweak speeds/feeds/D.O.C, and include some education on how to actually "cut" more metal, faster... No need, we'll just make the shop "more efficient"...

Anyway, fast forward about 6 years, the place is out of business, the machines are gone, and there's a chain across the front gate...

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Despite their beliefs, there are some problems that "management" just can't "fix". This has led me to an appreciation for truly good managers - something that isn't too often seen. And the ones that truly are good managers, are indeed worth what they are paid...

Jashley73 said:

Despite their beliefs, there are some problems that "management" just can't "fix". This has led me to an appreciation for truly good managers - something that isn't too often seen. And the ones that truly are good managers, are indeed worth what they are paid...

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I've hit the "like" button a thousand times, but nothing's happening... I am fully in agreement, despite the "Dilbert" take on things I have great respect for good managers, and they are worth every penny. I wish I had a little more of that ability.

bugerbeanjohnson said:

For those of you not quite understanding the problem let me make an analogy .

Pick a drive from point A to point B that takes an hour following the rules of the road and driving safely. You make that drive and consistently arrive in an hour vehicle intact and ready to go again. Some other guy (Gorilla thug machinist) makes that same drive and does it in 30 minutes ,the vehicle is over heating and has two bald tires now but once its cooled down it can still go again. Take the 2 times add them together and divide by 2 .

The average time is 45 minutes . Can you still make that drive following the rules of the road and safely , to yourself and other people on the road? Now do it again you drive it in 45mins and the other guy does it in 30mins , now your down to 41mins and so on . ....

On a production line or cnc the computer system works well , but in an job shop where the managements only concern is rolling out the jobs it promotes risk taking and allows Gorilla thug machinists to set the pace.

The machines get worn down swiftly the tooling becomes scarce and people start getting written up and fired for not meeting the times allotted. All for the modern business ideal of making the percentage more profit each year.

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Maybe if you used paragraphs then people would understand better what you are trying to say. Running all together turns many people off.

Thats more easier to read than what you had before.

Just my thoughts ....

Cheers ....

So someone is outproducing you by a factor of two, and you're saying that's unfair because YOU aren't able to do the job "safely" at that speed.

I had a guy like that here once. Came in promising the moon. Would spend the frist three hours of an eight hour day double-checking his setup. Even if it was the same set up that he was running the day before (we only have one shift) and when asked about it would make bleatings about quality. So he's already down to 60% productivity. Then he's slow for the rest of the time, so he was making about 30% as many parts as my other operators. At the same time he steadfastly refused to use the actual systems and procedures we have in place.

Talked to him about it, he had a lot to say about how everything will be scrap if he doesn't spend so much time on quality. "Just hit your numbers like everyone else can." So he tried to hit his numbers and I'll be damned if he didn't scrap 4000 parts in four different runs in a period of two weeks...

Then when I fired him he stopped by the next day saying he was willing to come back to work if we could talk about how unreasonable my expectations were and how he should be allowed to go a pace that would ensure quality.

Dollars to donuts "gorilla thug machinist" is just better at giving management what they want than you are. Here we run production, if you never snap an endmill you're not trying to get cycle times down enough. I buy expensive machines so I can push them hard. You went from being concerned about "safety" to being concerned about the machines getting worn out to being concerned for tooling life.

You're slow. That's okay. A production shop isn't the place for you.

Workforce management software can be great if properly applied and reports used and changes made.

If however it expects shorter run time just do the work in a safe pace and make mental note or scratch fast on paper anything that causes delays such as tools not in correct place.

Wear a watch with second hand and at a glance note the start and finish times for any time not actually doing the task.

Taking 5 minutes to locate an Allen wrench that should be stored at the machine.

During machine run or break make a list and show in real numbers the wasted time and just keep it handy.

Work safe at all costs and when management indicates you are too slow ask how they determine it then pull out your notes as be sure to explain notes done on break time...

Show your productive time in line with expectations and could do better if you did not need to do things on list.

Lastly state osha requires safe working environment...

This is assuming op is not in a well run production shop...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk

So...what's a "bugerbean"?

bugerbeanjohnson said:

For those of you not quite understanding the problem....

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I only read this post once, but I am again scratching my head.
Your posts read like comic books....but without any artwork.


Rex