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  1. #21
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    everybody needs to sit down for a minute, once and a while.

    No chairs in the shop? Well take a friggin guess where they're going to go sit down.

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    I have worked in 8 different shops when working for the man and they all had stools at the work benches. Some tasks are easier done sitting down, like filing out paperwork such as first articles or sorting parts.

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    Hi All:
    I believe there's a mentality at work that basically says:
    I (the owner/ manger/ executive/ whatever) only care about one thing, and that's to run everything full tilt at all times and squeeze the last micro fraction out of everyone and everything and if they don't like it or they break under the load...fuckem!

    It's a corrosive attitude and it's been degrading the workplace for decades, ever since the assholes with clipboards and stopwatches first showed up.
    Treating your people like shit means you can only get out of them what you can beat out of them...I think it's shortsighted and stupid.
    There are more measures to a company's success than how much profit you can wring out of it each year until you've fucked everybody over enough that no one will work with you or for you.

    As vendors and subcontractors we sometimes get the same sort of crap from accounts payable managers and purchasers and other vermin...too many have come to believe that good business practice means sticking it to everyone whenever and wherever they can.
    Then they wonder why they tanked, and have no friends, and their wives and kids hate them.

    I'd be finding ways to take fuckwit's chair away from him too...break into his office in the morning and hide it somewhere so he can get off his own lardass for a day and see how it feels.

    Now THAT was a satisfying rant.
    I feel much better now.

    Cheers

    Marcus
    Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
    Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining

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    I have more stools than people in my shop.

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    My knees are shot and I'd be filing some kind of disability action.

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    That is some bullshit right there. If you're a players-coach you should have everyone call in sick next week and bring the shop to a halt. Your guys will respect you and it will pay dividends in the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by implmex View Post
    Hi All:
    I believe there's a mentality at work that basically says:
    I (the owner/ manger/ executive/ whatever) only care about one thing, and that's to run everything full tilt at all times and squeeze the last micro fraction out of everyone and everything and if they don't like it or they break under the load...fuckem!
    The last job working for the man the owner was a great salesman who did not know squat about machining and lacked the aptitude to learn. The shop was pretty automated, most machining centers had multiple tombstones and the lathes had most with multi bar feeds. There was one set-up man on the lathes who was always in a hurry, I would say he was a B- grade at best, he always rushed through set-ups, trying to cut corners. His first articles were barely good and you could bet your life the job wasn't going to run long before it needed attention. We had standardized tool positions and a lot of tooling could be used from job to job. Even if the next job was going to run for weeks he would leave standard tooling in the machine instead of changing it to save time, even if the tooling was so shot it was leaving burrs on aluminum parts. I had actually seen him deburr parts before he turned them in to inspection to get a first article. He walked real fast and cut in front of people who were obviously on their way to do the same thing as him like use the comparator, check out gauges or get tooling. In spite of always being in a hurry his lack of high level critical skills made him slower at fixing problems than the top level guys that moved at half his speed. He also left a mess and never put anything back where it belonged.

    As the supervisor of the department he was my worst nightmare as the owner was impressed with his running around like a headless chicken, he wouldn't hear a bad word about the guy. On the other hand the guys that had everything under control and did a lot of leaning on the work benches the owner hated. No amount of explaining could get the owner to understand that machinists aren't digging trenches. The one shoveling the fastest is not always doing the best job.

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    I know you can not reach controls to complete a part sitting, so why even have the stool there? we have machine office you can sit in to paper work, change inserts, and lounge in a recliner too, about 20' away. I am of mind if machine is on you should be running it, at one with it. the hpu units alone suck more power than wages.
    just today I watched three operators play rock paper scissors to see who had to get up to move drop out of saw - not teaching hustle is not the same as suppling tools of slacking. If you stand, you get drop and sight new stick camber in one motion, the return to go button side step you can flip program to match camber in a rhythm. If the conveyors are not moving what can you as operator do to stop the dead air, and not one time has the solution been sit outta sight of meta machine envelope.
    Ever see cooks sitting on the line at a restaurant? Amazon pullers or fed ex sorters? welders, fitters and painters do not get to sit - again each has a chair near by for piddly work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    The last job working for the man the owner was a great salesman who did not know squat about machining and lacked the aptitude to learn. The shop was pretty automated, most machining centers had multiple tombstones and the lathes had most with multi bar feeds. There was one set-up man on the lathes who was always in a hurry, I would say he was a B- grade at best, he always rushed through set-ups, trying to cut corners. His first articles were barely good and you could bet your life the job wasn't going to run long before it needed attention. We had standardized tool positions and a lot of tooling could be used from job to job. Even if the next job was going to run for weeks he would leave standard tooling in the machine instead of changing it to save time, even if the tooling was so shot it was leaving burrs on aluminum parts. I had actually seen him deburr parts before he turned them in to inspection to get a first article. He walked real fast and cut in front of people who were obviously on their way to do the same thing as him like use the comparator, check out gauges or get tooling. In spite of always being in a hurry his lack of high level critical skills made him slower at fixing problems than the top level guys that moved at half his speed. He also left a mess and never put anything back where it belonged.

    As the supervisor of the department he was my worst nightmare as the owner was impressed with his running around like a headless chicken, he wouldn't hear a bad word about the guy. On the other hand the guys that had everything under control and did a lot of leaning on the work benches the owner hated. No amount of explaining could get the owner to understand that machinists aren't digging trenches. The one shoveling the fastest is not always doing the best job.
    I worked with that guy! On top of everything you listed, he was the biggest yes man I have ever seen, then and now. Everything was "almost" done, "it'll be done in an hour", which he invariably repeated 4 times a day.

    As far as chairs go, much like cell phones, not abused and they are fine. I read one commnet here that seemed to allude to the fact sitting in a chair made you slower if you had to move it around or whatnot to get to the machine. Well I call BS on that. It is the operator being lazy/ not efficient, not the fact they are sitting down. I don't run parts much these days, but have been a couple days this week. I sit between cycles when I can. It is my job and responsibility to keep an eye on machine to know when cycle is ending so I can be standing at the door ready to change out parts. If an opeartor is sitting there until machine is done, then getting up and scooting the chair out of the way, it is not the chair's fault....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Conrad Hoffman View Post
    My knees are shot and I'd be filing some kind of disability action.
    I have severe arthritis (since high school), the modern braces are miracles - and lots of aspirin powders. I can not have my knee cartilage shaved or another cortisone shot again. Yoga and zen work too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    I worked with that guy! On top of everything you listed, he was the biggest yes man I have ever seen, then and now. Everything was "almost" done, "it'll be done in an hour", which he invariably repeated 4 times a day.
    I left out the part of him being a yes man and the work place politician, good at taking credit for others work and blaming others for his mistakes. Most people thought the owner was a weird duck and avoided him at all costs, this guy took advantage of that.

    I thought my post was already long winded enough. Last I checked the guy still lived in California, maybe he moved to Florida, ha,ha.

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    Modern offices have desks that can be converted to stand/sit. Full time doing either is bad for you absolutely no question there.

    If you have people who are physically able to stand but choose to sit most times - judge them on their quality and quantity of work, not posture.

    I have a bench perpendicular and left of my VMC operator position. The bench has cabinets above and drawers below.90% of what I need is here. A tall chair with back support is at the far end of this bench where my PC and documents are. I may sit for hours or moments as the work requires. I often and can with this arrangement work 16 hour days. For those really long cycle times and extreme fatigue there is a couch in another room.

    Drastic, desperate changes such as your manager has done is a sign of a lack of insight and confidence. I don't enjoy the challenge of working for people dumber than I am.

    I would seek employment elsewhere.

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  20. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Paine View Post

    Anyway, DOES YOUR SHOP HAVE CHAIRS? STOOLS? RECLINERS? Did they get banned? IS That NORMAL?
    Sure, we have a few stools around the shop that can be carried off to a machine that you can't really walk away from, but have too much time to waste.

    Chairs, no.

    Recliners - you gotta be kidd'n me.




    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Paine View Post
    I recommended 'stand-up' desks for the office personnel, and they thought i was joking.
    That was the very first thing that I thought of when reading! (and some doo these days of course)




    Those folks that may start standing in the office may be good with it too, since they are just starting.
    My feet have been on the floor for too many years, and I cannot just stand anywhere too long. I'm OK if I keep moving tho. So - for me - tending a machine - I need a stool. (once I have cleaned up the immediate work area and have any "busy" work within tether distance taken care of)

    Then - if I've been on the floor too long (even if moving most of the time) some nights my back tells me it's time to head home, or at least go veg on the putor while babysitting machines. So - those older guys that don't want to pull a double without the support of a stool when possible - I git it!
    My [feet and] back just doesn't care much for those 40 hour days anymore.


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    The first shop I worked in had a steam coil in the men's room. The "Master Mechanic" thought the machinists were taking too long in the crapper. That plant is now an antique mall.

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    We've had guys taking to long with their morning toilet time. I doubt we can legally lock the door on the bathroom (), but that's the equivalent with the chair thing. On the other side of it though, the last thing I want to do is sit down with an employee and talk about how quickly they can make a taper, or what issues are keeping it from happening.

    To be fair, management is there to manage people's time, or at least make sure the greater whole is moving in a productive direction, but IMO you have to keep a Macro mindset when you address the Micro details. I'm also a big believer in "Take the slum out of the people and they will take themselves out of the slums."

    The solution isn't to take away the thing that's taking up their time, but to get them on board with the big picture, even if that big picture is "we expect 8 hours of solid work for 8 hours of solid pay". If an employee only does 3 hours of work in a 4 hour shift, THAT is the issue, not what he was doing that other hour. People tend to make a way to accomplish things they believe in. If they don't believe in it though, they will likely find more ways NOT to do the thing.

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    If you have time to lean you have time to clean and that job is never done.
    If your job was digging ditches would a chair be an expected part of the deal?
    You are better than a ditch digger and expect some sit down perks? Soon you will want a nice AC office and not have to get your hands dirty.
    If you do not like your job go become a bank teller.... oh wait they don't have chairs either. McDs not much sitting... Go work on wall street.
    It is an active job and your boss may be right.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by memphisjed View Post
    I know you can not reach controls to complete a part sitting, so why even have the stool there? we have machine office you can sit in to paper work, change inserts, and lounge in a recliner too, about 20' away. I am of mind if machine is on you should be running it, at one with it. the hpu units alone suck more power than wages.
    just today I watched three operators play rock paper scissors to see who had to get up to move drop out of saw - not teaching hustle is not the same as suppling tools of slacking. If you stand, you get drop and sight new stick camber in one motion, the return to go button side step you can flip program to match camber in a rhythm. If the conveyors are not moving what can you as operator do to stop the dead air, and not one time has the solution been sit outta sight of meta machine envelope.
    Ever see cooks sitting on the line at a restaurant? Amazon pullers or fed ex sorters? welders, fitters and painters do not get to sit - again each has a chair near by for piddly work.
    Splain something to me Lucy:
    Just how 'zactly is it different when the poor schmuck is standing and staring at the running machine, verses when he does the same sittin' down?

    In fact I'd submit to you that in a large enough shop, one would be more prone to wander off and bullshit with the other bastard - who is also forced to stand - instead of
    sitting-by and "being one" with his machine!

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    ABSOLUTELY.
    Imho..

    A MANAGER takes the stools away for one week and gets 100% increase in production (as said) and huge %% in problems and resentment.
    Then brings the stools back.
    Looks at production again.
    Week 2.

    THEN calls everyone to a confab, while offering real $$ cash rewards for maintaining near no-stools rate.

    --
    Workers typically deliver 1/3 of their potential, but mostly not because they are slow or lazy but because the company system is inefficient and slow.

    Extreme jobs like "dangerous catch" and any nr of high-value senior jobs will do high-speed work on their feet.
    Typically paid 100.000$++ / pa, and only high achievers of superior mental and physical ability apply.


    Quote Originally Posted by M.B. Naegle View Post

    To be fair, management is there to manage people's time, or at least make sure the greater whole is moving in a productive direction, but IMO you have to keep a Macro mindset when you address the Micro details. I'm also a big believer in "Take the slum out of the people and they will take themselves out of the slums."

    The solution isn't to take away the thing that's taking up their time, but to get them on board with the big picture, even if that big picture is "we expect 8 hours of solid work for 8 hours of solid pay". If an employee only does 3 hours of work in a 4 hour shift, THAT is the issue, not what he was doing that other hour.

    People tend to make a way to accomplish things they believe in. If they don't believe in it though, they will likely find more ways NOT to do the thing.

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    Somehow I bet these shops that ban chairs are the same ones that are constantly bitching about the shortage of skilled labor. Chairs and (god forbid) air-conditioning might make employees soft, but creature comforts help keep the good ones from running away.

    Get with the times. Having a chair is a perk, and perks are part of compensation. I try to motivate employees with incentive rather than fear. Fear usually only works on the stupid ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    Splain something to me Lucy:
    Just how 'zactly is it different when the poor schmuck is standing and staring at the running machine, verses when he does the same sittin' down?

    In fact I'd submit to you that in a large enough shop, one would be more prone to wander off and bullshit with the other bastard - who is also forced to stand - instead of
    sitting-by and "being one" with his machine!
    When I was a kid I werked on a packing line (for 2.5 months before moving on...) and the one woman would just piss me off! This one woman sat on a stool and divied out sheets of paper to put on the line for assembly instructions and/or parts lists or whatever ...

    I'm runnin' between 3 skids of different boards (ready to assemble furniture) and here she is - sweating up a storm and looking like the hardest werking person this side of the Mississippi!

    She never rotated out that I recall. Not sure if there was some physical issue, or she was worthless anywhere else, or ????

    But - had she stood up, I doubt that she was gunna git any more papers on the line ....


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