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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    Who suggested otherwise?
    YOU DID, when you waffled on about theoretical physics, and how condensation cannot possibly form.

    Even went so far as calling it "snowing in the air tank".

    Are we dealing with qty (2) different people signing on as the same member ?

    Or are you just attaching sock puppets to your hands ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    Who cares where your from ?

    code says every tank must have a drain.

    If, it's a big IF, any moisture condenses in the tank, you need to drain it.

    Make it easy on yourself so it will get done.

    I'll bet some heat will leak UP, into the attic, and keep it somewhat warm.
    If you drain it, and nothing comes out, you then know you have:
    1. water
    2. it's frozen

    So then, put a heat trace on it, BIG deal.

    If your whole shop goes unheated at night, what would you doo if the tank
    was IN the shop ?
    I never said anyone cares where I’m from....wtf???
    Talking about winter temps as OP said he encountered winter and freezing temps.
    Not sure what you are going off about? You said put heat trace on it?? That’s what I suggested.
    If ur heat goes off in the shop it doesn’t freeze instantly? I have no clue what ur talking about there. It would take a week for a insulated shop that was heated at 20c to drop everything inside shop to freezing temps ... unless ur dumb enough to leave the doors open.
    And if condensation hits his tank at freeze if temps the moisture does not pool at the bottom, it sticks to what ever it hits first , so there lies the problem. If his temps cycle you can have a months worth of ice built up the thaw in one day then that night freeze and split!
    I’ve seen it a million time in our plant over the last 25 years guys turn heat trace off drains and boom ur tagging out the whole tank as it splits piping.
    You could be popping ur drain open every day and get nothing but all it takes is the right temp swing !


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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by overkill19 View Post
    I never said anyone cares where I’m from....wtf???

    ... well ... I kind'a doo....

    Are you pretty much all oil and gas up there?
    (question has nothing to doo with air tanks)


    ----------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Well, all other points aside ...
    If you look at the Kaeser or Ingersoll installation recommendations, they almost always tell you to configure a single tank system as:

    Compressor -> Storage Tank -> Dryer -> Building piping ( equipment )

    I believe the reason was that noone gives a hoot if there is water in the storage tank.
    It is at the point-of-use where you want dry air, which is the reason for the Drier is the last piece in the supply.

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    They make auto drains you know. Mcmaster carr has them. It's not rocket science.

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    To the OP. A couple of questions about your compressors. Where is the suction for your compressed air, inside the building or from the outside? Just being inside a building that has dry air to begin with is a help. How much air is consumed? Is there an after cooler on the compressor? If the load is large hot air will tax the refrigerated dryer to its limits. Where are the intake and discharge lines located on the reserve tank? Do you feed the air tank radially or is it inline with the air system? If you are using a lot of air and have a tank fed radially from the bottom you will never ever have water in the tank especially if is higher than the compressor and shop feed lines. To clarify a little: Compressor is on floor and feeds a line that feeds the dryer and then the shop. A tee in the line feeds the reserve tank from the bottom in the overhead either before or after the dryer. No water in the tank ever whether it is outside or inside. I worked in a plant that used tremendous amounts of compressed air. The compressors ran 24/7 never shut off. Had redundant compressors so if one quit the other would take over. All the tanks were fed radially from the bottom. Although the compressors never shut off they did load at 0%, 50% or 100% depending on system pressure.
    The tanks were there to provide enough air to run the plant for a period of time so operators could correct a problem if one occurred. We had refrigerated dryers and dessicant towers in the system down stream from the reserve tanks. So to the OP, you are using the air from your system and no matter what the compressor puts in the system it is obviously OK with you. If there is moisture in it you probably have oil and moisture filters before each machine? Just because the tank is in the attic in the cold will not produce any more water than the compressor and dryer allowed to be there. Plumb it correctly and any condensation that will be made in the tank will just join the air because it was always there. Someone above stated they never have water in their tank. I will bet because it is of the piping configuration. Keep it simple.

  8. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by macds View Post
    Since I'm going to be installing a screw compressor here shortly, Im trying to think of air reciever placement.

    Curious what the thoughts are regarding placing my air tanks in the attic of my shop?

    Air will be dry (refrigerated dryer) and filtered before hitting the tanks, but should I be concerned about moisture buildup in the tanks (from temp changes)?

    I like the idea of saving wall\floorspace in my small shop.
    I would also much prefer the safety idea of the tanks being stored out of the work envelope.

    I could run the air coming back into the shop through another dryer\filter if necessary.

    It freezes here for extended periods in the winter.
    Last shop I was at installed a Kaiser. They told us not to run it to holding tanks, but rather to let it run as needed. Boss ignored that and plumbed it into two big holding tanks.

    Less than a year later Kaiser was in working on it, tech said it was due to how it was hooked up. He said it shouldn’t be plumbed into holding tanks, but should run on demand.

    So, depending on your needs, you may want to check with the manufacturer about what’s best.

  9. #28
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    This seems like a great place to utilize a sight glass.

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    Last shop I was at installed a Kaiser. They told us not to run it to holding tanks, but rather to let it run as needed. Boss ignored that and plumbed it into two big holding tanks.

    Less than a year later Kaiser was in working on it, tech said it was due to how it was hooked up. He said it shouldn’t be plumbed into holding tanks, but should run on demand.

    So, depending on your needs, you may want to check with the manufacturer about what’s best.

    Is this a continuous v/s cycle on/off situation?

    Shirley it's not the fact that there is a tank inline that is the cause.???


    -------------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    [QUOTE=digger doug;3472137]Who cares where your from ?

    It does matter. it will never freeze in my shop. At least not any water inside a sealed container like a pipe or tank. Free water drops in the sink maybe every ten years might get a little icy if they evaporate enough to lower the temp below freezing. Of course here in the attic it can easily go over 150 degrees in summer. This ages plastic and rubber much faster then 90 miles away in San Francisco.
    Bill D.

    PS: to be honest I did not know it got that cold in Algeria. I do know the Atlas mountains get snow and Kilimanjaro has at least one glacier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    ... well ... I kind'a doo....

    Are you pretty much all oil and gas up there?
    (question has nothing to doo with air tanks)


    ----------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    Used to be but our moron PM is putting us all in the poor house.

    I work in a poly plant now, but grew up on the rigs and in the oil well fire fighting world.

    Back to the tanks.... today if u had any in ours it would freeze instantly... -37c and feels like -49c makes for a no water zone.


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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    Well, all other points aside ...
    If you look at the Kaeser or Ingersoll installation recommendations, they almost always tell you to configure a single tank system as:

    Compressor -> Storage Tank -> Dryer -> Building piping ( equipment )

    I believe the reason was that noone gives a hoot if there is water in the storage tank.
    It is at the point-of-use where you want dry air, which is the reason for the Drier is the last piece in the supply.
    In a very very humid environment, we ran this way for about six months, then changed to compressor-> dryer-> receiver and it worked much better. The air was so wet it was rotting out the storage tank in a matter of months. Then we were getting problems with rust.

    Ingersoll is no doubt smarter than me but in this case, drier-before-receiver worked a whole lot better.

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    Default Dry air tanks in attic of shop?

    [QUOTE=Bill D;3472482]
    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    Who cares where your from ?

    It does matter. it will never freeze in my shop. At least not any water inside a sealed container like a pipe or tank. Free water drops in the sink maybe every ten years might get a little icy if they evaporate enough to lower the temp below freezing. Of course here in the attic it can easily go over 150 degrees in summer. This ages plastic and rubber much faster then 90 miles away in San Francisco.
    Bill D.

    PS: to be honest I did not know it got that cold in Algeria. I do know the Atlas mountains get snow and Kilimanjaro has at least one glacier.
    That’s tapatalk it defaults to Algeria
    I’m in Alberta Canada
    And clearly this is just going in circles.
    Hope the Op can use “some” of the good info and rig it up safely and will last along time.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    Is this a continuous v/s cycle on/off situation?

    Shirley it's not the fact that there is a tank inline that is the cause.???


    -------------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    I don’t know. . .

    To me it’s all a game of where the switches are set, but . . .

    If I understood right they said the compressor was supposed to run a often, at short intervals. With the tanks, it ran a long time at long intervals. Short runs and short intervals the compressor would warm up and stay warm. The long run long interval the compressor would get HOT, then cold.

    I didn’t do any maintenance there, so I wasn’t directly involved in the work to know specifics.

    Kaiser is kaeser according to my phone

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  17. #35
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    [QUOTE=overkill19;3472493]
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill D View Post

    That’s tapatalk it defaults to Algeria
    I’m in Alberta Canada
    And clearly this is just going in circles.
    Hope the Op can use “some” of the good info and rig it up safely and will last along time.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I'm sure YOU can fix it.

    Don't blame me for your shortcomings.

    BTW doo you see "snow" inside your tank ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    YOU DID, when you waffled on about theoretical physics, and how condensation cannot possibly form.

    Even went so far as calling it "snowing in the air tank".

    Are we dealing with qty (2) different people signing on as the same member ?

    Or are you just attaching sock puppets to your hands ?

    What is wrong with you

    I never said, anywhere, you shouldn't have a drain

    You completely made that up

    or was it your sock puppet?

    I said there is not going to be a problem with ice clogging anything in the tank with previously dried air

    Get a grip

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    Last shop I was at installed a Kaiser. They told us not to run it to holding tanks, but rather to let it run as needed. Boss ignored that and plumbed it into two big holding tanks.

    Less than a year later Kaiser was in working on it, tech said it was due to how it was hooked up. He said it shouldn’t be plumbed into holding tanks, but should run on demand.

    So, depending on your needs, you may want to check with the manufacturer about what’s best.
    That is what I thought, screws run flat out.

    I think it might vary if there is a big difference between average and instantaneous usage.

    One could have a low average and large instantaneous usage in which case a tank would make sense

    on your other point my compressor has always been piped compressor drier tank, and it works well, as I mentioned

    i see a reason for the other way, if it was a large compressor with low instant usage, you could get away with a smaller drier,or if only some of the air needed to be dry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclotronguy View Post
    Refrigerated air dryer will get air to a dew point of 38 degrees F or so and generally not better. IF your receiver sees temps below freezing there will be condensation. Drains are cheap and easy and smart.

    And yes I've done exactly as you suggest, a refrigerated air dryer after the "wet-receiver" and that feeds 80 gal of air storage in the rafters and another 60gal outside. Drains and drip legs cost nearly nothing to implement
    Here is the thing, unless he is running the compressor in a sauna, the air will have only slightly more moisture than the outside air

    When it is cold, less moisture.

    Has anyone bought a drier because of water problems in the winter?

    I think not

    The small amount of water that may build up in the tank is unlikely to cause a problem.

    The OP said the tank will be in the attic, not outside


    Unlikely to spend a lot of time at below zero

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    YOU DID, when you waffled on about theoretical physics, and how condensation cannot possibly form.

    Even went so far as calling it "snowing in the air tank".

    Are we dealing with qty (2) different people signing on as the same member ?

    Or are you just attaching sock puppets to your hands ?
    FWIW, Gustafson did not write that Theory should not be damned, that code should not be followed and that tank should not have drain.

    After reading several of your unacceptable posts, I felt it neccessary to chime in and inform you that I feel you are detrimental to this site. While I agree that your points about code are valid, your respect towards others needs improvement and that drowns out any valid points you make.

    You should consider emotional intelligence training as its obvious to me it would be of huge benefit to yourself and all of PM. Also consider the idea of not posting where one cannot conduct one's self professionally. It makes this all look very very bad.

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  23. #40
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    Well if the OP is even paying attention anymore I agree that moving a storage tank out of the conditioned zone is a bad idea. It may not be seriously detrimental but I wouldnt recommend it.

    Wouldnt a better idea be just to mount the tank on the wall above the compressor? Sort of like double stacking the tanks. This would keep the tank in the same environment as the main tank and would eliminate the issues that might be caused by having the tank out of sight in the attic.

    Charles

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