Electric rates.......can we compare?

I am interested to compare Electricity Charges between Upstate NY and other parts of the country, especially down south, like in NC and SC.

If you have time to take a look at your Electric Bill, and post your rates, that would be great.
No need to list out all the details as below, I am just curious about the "added fees" VS the actual KWH's used, and of course YOUR price per KWH.
IOW, does your utility have as much and as many "add on" charges??

I'm thinking it's not so much the KWH rate, but all the tacked on charges that make NY electric so expensive.

This is a commercial account, 230V 200AMP 3Phase.
As of Feb 3rd 2014: (Pretty slow in the shop, so the numbers are relatively small)

Numbers listed are -per month-
Basic service charge $100.66
Meter charge 2.21
Meter service charge 11.14
Meter data Svc chge 3.10
Demand 4.6265KW 37.80
Revenue decoupling mech 4.81
Reliability support svcs chg 3.42
NYS assessment 1.00
SBC/RPS chrg 3.14

Total $167.28

So $167.28 is what they call the "Electricity Delivery Charges"
This is before I turn on anything for the month, and just for the privilege of having the wires connected to my
building.
My electric comes from a 3rd party provider, US Energy partners.
Total electric usage and charges are as follows:

OFF peak 301kwh @ .08008 $24.10
ON peak 239kwh @ .1505 $35.96
Total "Supply Charges" $60.06

So I pay $167.28 in fees and charges and use only $60.06 in actual electric charges.

The $100.66 for basic service seems insane to me.
Just a few years ago it was around $50/month, and I remember back in the early 90's it was around $22/ month.

dk

Mine: rural Blount County, Alabama, 12-9-2013 thru 1-10-2014, Usage = 4,610 kWh x 1(Constant) = $455.86 + Alabama Gross Receipts Tax $17.84 = Total Current Electric Service = $473.70.

That's all it shows. Total kWh and the tax.

3 phase service with a fucking demand meter: 4959 kwh $575.71. No sales tax, no other fees. Municipal electric company, which purchases electricity from LCRA.

Shop rate .158 per KW includes 3ph charge, But not load demand fees that can be over 600 extra, our LDF kicks in at 45KVA at 15minutes. This is rural elec co. and if you need 3ph they screw you good. (unless your a farmer, than you get all kinds of free shit) I can see the WPL lines about 80 yards from my shop but am not allowed to use them even if I pay for the poles etc. No load fees on WPL, use as much as you want, no transformer fees or anything else.

Home rate .118 per KW includes all fees

Nat gas .98 cents per 100K BTUs W all fees

Propane current 1.89 gallon (94k BTU). summer buys about 1.30 a gallon

Elec is mostly from coal power plants .

We are in a very expensive part of Oregon at about $.12/Kwh; most of state is around $0.06 or less.

Dkmc,

I doubt there's much you can do but it might be worth looking into starting some equipment up earlier/later to spread out your demand (reduce the $38 charge). Local utility should be able to help you some with that. They also may have some "time of use" charts where you can look at your consumption over a typical day/week and be able to spot some anomalies (i.e. compressor left on at night).

Don't know what kind of incentives you have out there but I can tell you the two biggest bangs for the buck are typically fixing air leaks (very energy intensive) and better lighting. If you have good incentives it can be a great morale booster (and energy effic. gain) to install HO T-8 or even T-5 (T-5 typically used for higher bays).

The Dude

I'm just outside of Vancouver BC, Canada.

This is for 100-200amps of 600v 3 phase power in an industrial complex.

$.19530/day
$.09280/kWh
Rate Rider at 5% (so 5% of all charges before tax)
5% goods and service tax
7% provincial sales tax

I'm usually using 11,000-15,000 kW.h so my bill is usually $1200-2k.

With any luck I'll have close to double the kWh by the end of this year

Your paying $.15 kwh on peak and $8+ per KW - yikes. No wonder New york is flooding us down here with TV ads trying to entice businesses with tax free incentives. There is no money left for taxes when they are done with you for electric.

I pay around $4 per KW and .056 kwh. Half on the KW and 1/3 on the kwh compared to you. I couldn't afford to survive where your at.

Dan, that bill isn't right. They forgot to charge you for the 2 quarts of oil they put in the line truck

Our power is right at 11 cents per kw-hr including all taxes for a 208V 3 phase service. Service into the building is 800 amps but the service size doesn't affect the rate. We have what they call a small commercial service account. Under that, we don't have a demand charge unless the demand exceeds 35kW twice, or 50kW once, in a 12 month period. No separation of peak and off-peak under that account. Your 540 kW-hr usage would cost me right at $60 here, tax included. So you're right that it isn't the rates but rather all the other stuff they're adding.

When we built the shop around 1990 we had a choice of either a 208V or a 240V service. The power company likes balanced loads, so the 208 service was the only one available under the small commercial terms. The per kW-hr charge is a bit less on a 240 service, but it has a demand charge starting from the first kW. Its my understanding that a 240V 3 phase service is no longer available here unless you're a big user, and the normal choices are either 208 Y or 480 Y. All 480 services have demand charges from the first kW.

I'm thinking the demand charge here is around $4/kW, but not sure of that since I try to make sure I don't get into a demand situation.

Duke Power bought our former utility Progress Energy a while back. Since you're interested in rates in NC and SC, I'd say Duke now has 2/3 of both NC and SC, and the rates would be very similar across their service area.

I'm blown away by some of the service installation charges quoted here by various people. Wrustle was a recent one. Unreal cost there. When ours was installed at the shop, the power co set 4 poles, installed a high voltage disconnect on the branch, ran about 500 ft x 4 of high voltage wire and neutral, furnished and hung 3 txfmrs, and fed the low voltage down the pole and underground to the meter base on the side of the shop, all at zero cost. Not free now, but wouldn't be more than about $5K tops, which is still pocket change as compared to some of the quotes I've seen here on PM.

A few yrs ago my sister and her husband needed 400 amps of single phase for a business they own. Power co runs that as a pair of parallel 200A services. They had some stuff set up and needed to get the upgrade in as quick as possible. Had a quote from the power co for $800 for underground installation of about 200 ft. Power co said it would be about 3 wks before they could get to it. The holdup was scheduling a trencher. Since we've got a couple large trenchers at the shop, Rick asked them if they could do it any quicker if he did the trenching and backfilling. Yep, could schedule the installation the next day after he trenched it as long as they had a couple days notice. And the $800 charge was for trenching, so if he did it himself the installation was no charge. 3 days after that conversation they had the new service in the building, inspected and ready to go.

Overall, its hard to complain about the rates or service of the power co around here.

I really know better than to write this now......tonight.....
But....

Rant ON

i am going to twist this post a bit sideways now.
It's not just about electric rates, it's really about ALL the costs that are killing me up here.

I am FED UP with NYS !!
I cannot get ahead......been banging my head against the wall with all the Fees, Regs, high taxes and utilities for many years now. Not to mention, many of my past customers are GONE. I see where guys say (in other states) you can go out and knock on doors and pick up customers. There are hardly any potential customers left around here locally.
Same old same old manufacturers with about 30 job shops in the mud pool all fighting for their business as the water dries up......aka alligators in the plains of Africa.

Then there's the "New Yawk' attitude so prevalent around these parts....."don't ask me about my business, and I don't want to hear about yours. Leave me alone". Very unfriendly folks in these parts......WHY? I'll tell you why.......because they are pissed off. They are fighting to pay their property taxes......maybe sick of working 2 or 3 jobs.
About 5 miles over the NY/PA border and the PA folks have a different and more friendly attitude.

I guess this hard winter, after several years of more mild weather, and the taxes, and my friend who lived in Rochester for 58 years, got fed up with the SAFE act, and moved to Anderson last year, has made the light bulb above my head........glow......quite brightly at this point.

I WANT OUT!
I have had enough.
They take most of my profit and keep demanding MORE.
I am not surviving here at this point.

And so I ask.......WHERE should I relocate?
SC seems like the place to go "right now"
I am asking for any input from anyone that reads this post.

There is no money left for taxes when they are done with you for electric.

CORRECT! (If I wanted to be sarcastic I'd say YA THINK??)

And Taxes, and high prices ...Gas/diesel, and Licenses, and Fees, and Penalties, and
many, many RESTRICTIONS......building codes, water district fees, and
on and on and on and on......
Add it all up and I am working for the state.

I have NO idea how I could afford Obama care for myself......let alone employees.

dk

PS
Rant OFF


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbCYJZnxIFk&list=FLq03NFtflNC72-wpllPVqjg

Mad Machinist said:

Your paying $.15 kwh on peak and $8+ per KW - yikes. No wonder New york is flooding us down here with TV ads trying to entice businesses with tax free incentives. There is no money left for taxes when they are done with you for electric.

I pay around $4 per KW and .056 kwh. Half on the KW and 1/3 on the kwh compared to you. I couldn't afford to survive where your at.

Click to expand...

Here is a crazy bill, still fighting it...but might offer some 'comparison'.
This is the FIRST bill of shop we rented with 3 phase commercial service.
Total bill over $400 on 439 KWH...
Appears we are being charged more than 12$/Kw when all separate charges are added up.
So then including demand and power factor this particular bill ends up with a KWH cost of about $1.00/KWH.
I realize most of the charge is related to 'demand', and that rate varies depending on how much used - we somehow got this bill into the 2nd tier of Demand cost (first level to not cross is 10 kW, next level 20 kW..etc...).
Considering how little total KWH used (439 KWH) we fought this - with PC basically saying nothing you can do and the Demand charge remains unchanged for entire year until the following year 'reading season' of 3 months in summer (July->Sept).
Appears (I wasn't there) a 'helpful friend' decided to turn on all switches in the shop at once and turned on 3 large and very old AC units on the roof simultaneously - which possibly took demand past 20Kw...perpetrator of idiotic switch turning claims the AC units were on only 5 min at most... The AC units have never been used since then. Note there are NO other machines or motors hooked up in the shop - only a small fridge and some fluorescent lighting existed in this part of shop - which was the only part of shop that had electric used the entire month..

Wow, DK, you got me reviewing stuff - what part of upstate NY are you in? I'm actually in the process of moving the shop from Vermont to NY. Less than an hours drive from here I can buy industrial land and put a new building (nothing fancy or big) on it for about the cost of the land and legal fees here (I'll be acting as the gc). Plus, there is actually some manufacturing going on over there. Anyway, here is what I was given to go by for NYSEG with an average of $0.085/kWh:

SCNo. 2
Customer Charge.........................................................................................................$5.37
Bill Issuance Charge(a per-billchargeappearing in theMiscellaneous Chargessection ofthe bill).....$0.73
MeterOwnership Charge................................................................................................$1.68
MeterService Charge....................................................................................................$8.48
MeterDataService Charge..............................................................................................$2.08
Demand Charge perkw..................................................................................................$8.31
Delivery Charge perkwh................................................................................................$0.00339
Reactive Charge per billing reactivekilovolt-ampere hour.....................................................$0.00078
TransitionChargeperkwh...............................................................................................Variable(TCSStatement)
SystemBenefitsCharge ................................................................................................Rateperkwh(SBCStatement)
Renewable PortfolioStandardCharge ..............................................................................Rateperkwh(RPSStatement)
TemporaryStateAssessmentSurcharge............................................................................Rateperkwh(TSASStatement)
RDMAdjustment .........................................................................................................Rateperkwh(RDMStatement)
RSSSurcharge............................................................................................................Rateperkw(RSSStatement)

The county development people looked at my current costs and showed I'd be coming out ahead of where I am now.

VSMI said:

Wow, DK, you got me reviewing stuff - what part of upstate NY are you in?
The county development people looked at my current costs and showed I'd be coming out ahead of where I am now.

Click to expand...

I am in Chemung county (FYI)
What county are you thinking of moving to? (Man that is scary)

The county development people looked at my current costs and showed I'd be coming out ahead of where I am now

Click to expand...

PLEASE tell me you are not taking those folks seriously or on their word?
Coumo is begging businesses to stay in NYS.
Once you get there, and the building is up.....a year or 2 later, the tax bills start to go UP....and they give you some BS excuse.....what do you do? Move the building back out of NYS? Do NOT trust ANY county business development people!

Go here and read this.....most importantly read all the comments at the end.
Census: Trend continues, as more people leave NY than move in - Newsday

Note:
If you try to go back to it, the site will want you to sign up and pay for access.
If you clear your cookies in your browser each time, then go back to the link, you can access the full article again.

Other than that, no offense to you, but I think you would be Batshit CRAZY to move INTO NYS.

Only crazy if I was moving from some place better. I'd have moved south long ago if it wasn't for family. Actually the property tax rates are indeed crazy (Clinton county NY) but not crazy when compared to here (Vermont), particularly when you look at appraised values for comparable properties. Vermont plans to be a single-payer health care state in a couple of years. With a total state population of approx. 625,000 people, and a relatively small portion of that who work for a living (outside of government), I believe even tougher times are ahead. As far as the folks I've been dealing with in NY, they have been on the ball and very helpful so far. None of us has a crystal ball. You have to trust people at some point (which I find hard at times, too) or you spend your time spinning your wheels and not moving forward - or at least trying to.

It's true, you do have to trust people at "some point".
I trust people, but those people?
Only with the odds more on my side and the stakes much lower.
Historically the business development people tend to paint rosy pictures.
Remember.....Andrew NEEDS your money!
All you can be is sorry I guess.....

Just got my Feb. bill. I have a electric coop for a supplier. Net cost for 2080kwh was $.142/kwh.

Rappahanock Electric in Central Virginia, total bill divided by KWH comes to around 12 cents per kilowatt hour. That is pretty high usage here you pay the same rate no matter how much you use.
Unless someone is in a co-op the California people (lived there 50 years) are going to win the high electric rate challenge easily. The big providers there all have a tiered system with rates per KWH climbing every time you hit a higher bracket kind of like Federal income tax. When I was there they had 5 "tiers" tier one prices were the cheapest but even one guy living in a bachelor apartment would climb into tier 2.

Dualkit said:

Rappahanock Electric in Central Virginia, total bill divided by KWH comes to around 12 cents per kilowatt hour. That is pretty high usage here you pay the same rate no matter how much you use.
Unless someone is in a co-op the California people (lived there 50 years) are going to win the high electric rate challenge easily. The big providers there all have a tiered system with rates per KWH climbing every time you hit a higher bracket kind of like Federal income tax. When I was there they had 5 "tiers" tier one prices were the cheapest but even one guy living in a bachelor apartment would climb into tier 2.

Click to expand...

Four Tiers dualkit, I don't have the bill from the shop but it's a lot cheaper than the house, even at full tilt. California is the 'screw you' state went it comes to electricity. We had the kids over for the month and we have an all electric house. We were kicked up into the forth tier... it was bad.

Tier 1 (858 kWh allowance) Right, if you live in a house trailer....... $.13230/kWh $113.51
Tier 2 A token amt. here before they really put the screws to you...$.15040/kWh 38.71
Tier 3.................................................................................. $.32377/kWh $194.46
Tier 4 Now they really are into the feeding frenzy........................ $.36377/kWh $252.82
Tax .70
Total Screw $600.20

In the summer it can be worse, the family was all here for a month also, that time it was 900 bucks! We inherited the house and the average monthly bills before we got it were around $1200 to $1300 for elect. ,fuel oil, and propane.

BTW - We don't have Nat. Gas here. Propane is about 2.10 per, Fuel oil is about 3.60 per.

So pardon me if I don't feel sorry for you guys.

Dualkit said:

Rappahanock Electric in Central Virginia, total bill divided by KWH comes to around 12 cents per kilowatt hour. That is pretty high usage here you pay the same rate no matter how much you use.
Unless someone is in a co-op the California people (lived there 50 years) are going to win the high electric rate challenge easily. The big providers there all have a tiered system with rates per KWH climbing every time you hit a higher bracket kind of like Federal income tax. When I was there they had 5 "tiers" tier one prices were the cheapest but even one guy living in a bachelor apartment would climb into tier 2.

Click to expand...

Yup. I don't see the electric bill at work, but at home I have 2 ag wells on my meter along with the house and a small shop. In the winter I only run lights and a tv, wood fireplace and all that, wells only run once a week for an hour or so, its my cheapest time of the year. I still pay $150-180 per month. I hit $800 a month in the summer when both wells run every day, easy. And I don't even have A/C in my house, just the 2 60hp wells.

We have Appalachian Power here, the largest coal-burner in the country. Like it or not, coal has kept electricity so cheap over the decades that most people and businesses never thought twice about how much their power bill was. But now, with the "green" culture, and the move away from coal to natural gas, electricity prices will skyrocket over time. We have loads of nat gas, but it is a commodity bought and sold on Wall Street just like oil, and the blue suits will stick it to us good once most of the power plants are on it.

Anyway, last month I used 1,155 KWH at the shop, for a total bill of $149.33. Works out to 12.9 cents per KWH. The actual KWH charge on your bill doesn't mean much anymore, with all of the "added-on" costs and fees.

Greg

scadvice said:

Four Tiers dualkit, I don't have the bill from the shop but it's a lot cheaper than the house, even at full tilt. California is the 'screw you' state went it comes to electricity. We had the kids over for the month and we have an all electric house. We were kicked up into the forth tier... it was bad.

Tier 1 (858 kWh allowance) Right, if you live in a house trailer....... $.13230/kWh $113.51
Tier 2 A token amt. here before they really put the screws to you...$.15040/kWh 38.71
Tier 3.................................................................................. $.32377/kWh $194.46
Tier 4 Now they really are into the feeding frenzy........................ $.36377/kWh $252.82
Tax .70
Total Screw $600.20

In the summer it can be worse, the family was all here for a month also, that time it was 900 bucks! We inherited the house and the average monthly bills before we got it were around $1200 to $1300 for elect. ,fuel oil, and propane.

BTW - We don't have Nat. Gas here. Propane is about 2.10 per, Fuel oil is about 3.60 per.

So pardon me if I don't feel sorry for you guys.

Click to expand...

Are you under the wrath of PG&E? So you only have a 4 tiered system? I was under the wrath of SCE in So Cal, if you figured in the bond charges and all the other BS tier 5 was over 40 cents a KWH even in the winter. If SCE dropped rates or no one from SoCal chimes in you maybe be the winner of the high rate contest, congratulations!!!!!!!! That is a good price for propane because of the cold winter people are paying up to $3.50 here.