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Thread: Emotions Matter

  1. #41
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    Hmm. I've got a lot to say about younger people in the workforce, but I'm not sure that's what this article is about.

    In Tom Lipton's great book "Metal Working Sink or Swim", he gives some advise to machinists or whoever about dealing with and understanding engineers.

    "The world of the engineer is a much more open and collegiate environment when compared with the typical shop surroundings. They ask questions of one another in meetings and review each other's work, looking for errors without placing blame. It's a more open and cooperative environment, much like the schools that produced them. It's okay to say "I don't understand" or "I'm not following you"."

    It seems that the shop owner is trying to create an open and collegiate environment in a world that is traditionally populated with grouchy old codgers who have "earned it". I think it's a great idea!

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    There's a quick story in Dale Carnegie's book "How to Win Friends & Influence People" where Charles Schwab, then manager of Carnegie Steel, walks up to a group of guys smoking on the job. Smoking wasn't allowed inside? and Schwab had every right & authority to chew them out, call them every name in the book, and curse them back to work - maybe even fire them.

    Instead, he reached into his jacket, pulled out cigars for each guy, and said, "Gentlemen, I'd sure appreciate it if you all would enjoy these outside..."

    The guys would have complied with the 'dickhead' orders, at least until the boss walked away, when of course they would soon begin their gossip & slack-off pace again. Instead, Schwab earned a little more respect, and everyone was happy to oblige.





    Do we need to coddle the up & coming generation?

    No, we need to build them up. Sometimes that takes tough love, sometimes it takes holding one's hand & leading them through. (This is true regardless of age or job role to be filled by the way...) I bet the US Marines are still able to turn "snowflakes" into Marines. Why then, do we assume that an entire generation is incapable of rising to a much less demanding challenge of becoming proficient at a skilled trade?





    My daughter is 5. Sometimes I need to cuddle & baby her. Other times, I have to be mean & force her. Much preferred, is take her by the hand & work through something difficult along side her, in order to SHOW her that it can be done, and that SHE CAN DO IT. Then, my work is done. Now, she knows it can be done, and for pride alone she's happy to do the task, just because she knows she can. And yet, we often expect employees to respond to only one type of treatment in order to get work done...?






    Myself, I applaud the owner for 1- being open-minded enough to consider making a change, 2- resolving to take action, and 3- persisting through, even when it hurt. The guy was looking at several inevitable challenges facing his business - facing nearly every skilled-trade business right now - and decided come hell or high water that he was not going to take it lying down, and then he did something about it. It sounds like after several years they're finally able to reap the rewards. To that I say "well done" to them...

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    Japan introduced a similar strategy back in the 70s and 80s.
    The results were a butt kicking for US auto and manufacturing with our loss of a lot of jobs.
    Auto plants, US machine tool builders, all gone and it is not China, Mexico, or big finance that made this happen.
    Maybe employee involvement works.
    You need people to make a shop work, they all come with emotions attached.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by hobbyman View Post
    I am a retired steel fabricator so the longest time in one shop was about 7 long years. I was in for a project that would be successfully bid on and when the job was over I was also gone. The successful shops were run by a dictator... a benevolent dictator but that one person called the shots and we marched together to his drum beat. No military operation is successful if the platoon stops to take a vote each morning.
    It also meant that if you did not come up to the mark or were weak then you could expect to be the first to go. I can even remember taking lay off before someone junior to me with no resentment. This guy was just so much better and faster than me. I cannot think of any operation that was successful and profitable and run by a holding hands approach.
    There is no guilt in managing in a manner that could be seen as mean spirited. The bottom line is profit and money, not how everyone feels. You are either part of the team or not relevant. As one of my workmates used to say: "Suck it up princess"
    The idea in a profit making endeavor is obviously to make money.

    Having the most skilled employees is one way to make money.

    Keeping the most skilled employees is obviously key in having the most skilled employees

    Whatever you do to keep them is what keeps you profitable


    You and your attitude are the problem, sorry to say

    One needs to attract the best and brightest, and keep them.

    They might be women, the might be gay, they might be trans, they might be funny looking, they might dress funny

    Having some dick telling them to suck it up is not the way things get done.


    The world, and business, is not a military operation. And it should not be, please reference Catch 22


    Process developed through collaboration is far, far superior to dictatorship


    always

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    Quote Originally Posted by garyhlucas View Post
    Back story is simple. I designed all of our products except one which we hardly ever sell. I designed the structures, the pumping system, the wiring in the panels, the panel layouts, did all the PLC programming, started up the first two systems and trained the operators. I laid out our old shop and our new shop, purchased all the equipment, all the tools and designed the rack system, a special long material rack etc. I purchased the CNC and trained the guy I think is a slacker how to use it, and how to use the CAM program. When a part is tough to program for the CNC I do it for him. I purchased the 3D modeling software and the program AllOrders that manages materials for us and trained 4 young engineers to use both SolidWorks and AllOrders. The products I designed are selling like crazy because they blow away every competitor on price and performance. I also get a substantial royalty on every product that continues for 2 years after I leave the company for any reason.

    So really I guess I have done nothing here. Yeah, if you are a slacker I am very tough to get along with. Not a single argument of any kind with any of the other 14 people here in 5 years.
    I never said you didn't do anything, I observed from what you said it looks like you are about to catch the shaft. It has happened to many people that were essential to a company, or at least thought they were. Happened to my brother in law, the boss doesn't realize what they lost till it is gone. But it sound like you have it under control and like I said I don't have the whole story.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenton View Post
    I never said you didn't do anything, I observed from what you said it looks like you are about to catch the shaft. It has happened to many people that were essential to a company, or at least thought they were. Happened to my brother in law, the boss doesn't realize what they lost till it is gone. But it sound like you have it under control and like I said I don't have the whole story.

    Happened to me and my co-worker. I like to think I saw it coming for some time, and he kept saying "they NEED us though". I told him it doesn't matter, big corporations don't need anyone...

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Japan introduced a similar strategy back in the 70s and 80s.
    The results were a butt kicking for US auto and manufacturing with our loss of a lot of jobs.
    Auto plants, US machine tool builders, all gone and it is not China, Mexico, or big finance that made this happen.
    Maybe employee involvement works.
    You need people to make a shop work, they all come with emotions attached.
    Bob

    Why have young people in Japan stopped having sex? | World news | The Guardian


    Just sayin'...


    ---------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    He was lucky he never bankrupted his place.
    40% good people left (Its always the good people who leave because they can walk into another job) and no investment in 5 years.
    It must have been hell to work there...

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    I guess I may have gotten a different takeaway from the article than most. As a younger guy at 33 I appreciate the approach. I have been machining now for 14 years. Been a lead machinist for almost a year now. I have worked in some very toxic places. I have been the cancer before in a toxic place. I would like to think I understand most roles now besides ownership. The main takeaway for me in the article is respect. This is a major shortage in shop culture today. I have a zero tolerance policy for back biting and disrespect. Too many times we attack someone personally for a shortcoming or a mistake. We are all humans and deserve respect from one another from the floor sweeper to the CEO.

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    Why have young people in Japan stopped having sex? | World news | The Guardian


    Ox , this is the MGTOW / Grass eating men movement

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    He was lucky he never bankrupted his place.
    40% good people left (Its always the good people who leave because they can walk into another job) and no investment in 5 years.
    It must have been hell to work there...
    The point is they left so they were not definitively good employees

    Everyone has a balance of good and bad parts of being an employee.

    You can be the most skilled worker in the place and still be on the negative side of the balance.

    If you find it necessary to berate the office person who comes out to get you to sign your paperwork, and twist them up for the rest of the day, it is quite possible your VORP[to borrow from baseball stats, everything is related to baseball] value over replacement player might well be negative.

    You might be the best machinist in the plant, but if you make those around you less efficient through your attitude[for one example] it is quite possible that replacing you with a less talented but more amenable person will result in more profit for the company

    It is not anyone else's job to 'deal with it'

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    The point is they left so they were not definitively good employees

    If you find it necessary to berate the office person...
    #1 not necessarily. They may have left because they weren't listened to

    #2 if you feel inclined to do so, and haven't been "controlled", then that is week management

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    I must be a good motivator. Everybody always says they have to work twice as hard when I'm around.

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    Good thing I wasn't just talking about you ......


    Been a few years since I drove up that Lane twixt all that Corn wondering "Where the hell are those Turning Machines I've heard about?"...

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    #1 not necessarily. They may have left because they weren't listened to

    #2 if you feel inclined to do so, and haven't been "controlled", then that is week management
    #1 of course, but par tof the project is actually listening, so it seems more likely that they were on the not wanting to listen side, but certainly, point taken

    #2 absolutely, and we get to the crux of it, does one stand around and either yell at the guy doing the yelling[the very definition of toxic] or listening to the complaints about the yelling[rather a waste of time] or do something about it?

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    Is a Grumpy Old Man's view really relivent on this subject?


    ---------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    Is a Grumpy Old Man's view really relivent on this subject?


    ---------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    If hes not --------- aware of himself, then hes more than likely the lions share of the problem.

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    Good info! Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    In the mid 60s I worked for a PHD biochemist who got his Phud in Cambridge, England. He told about an old gent who talked about his pal, Louis Pasteur. The point is that I knew someone who knew someone who knew people at the start of real medicine. There was medicine before that but it was pretty dismal and likely to do more harm than good. For the millennia before that, humanity operated by the rabbit strategy, having as many offspring as possible and hoping that enough would survive to maintain the tribe. From a personal viewpoint, you would hope that one or more would grow up to take care of you in your old age. I am told that in ancient Egypt girls would marry at puberty, or even before, and have 10 children when they died before 30. Despite the huge number of children, the population increase was small because most of them didn't make child bearing age. More recently, about 500 years ago, the Aztecs didn't name children until they were 7 since there was no point wasting a name on someone who was unlikely to live long enough to need it. Of Pasteur's 5 children, 3 died in childhood of typhoid fever.

    Now, due to modern medicine, sanitation, and good nutrition, in developed countries most children live fairly long lives. With Social Security, Medicare, pension plans, assisted living and the reduced physical stresses of modern life, many, if not most old people do not live with their children. In fact, it sometimes seems to be the other way around.

    Inevitably this has had a major effect on the work patterns and attitudes. In Dickensonian times the life of a single woman was terrible, especially if she had dependents. It still isn't always easy, but nowhere as bad as the seamstresses living in squalor, sewing all day for pennies.

    Another effect- I believe that much of the hatred for the LGBT crowd was because they may not be contributing their quota of children and were endangering the tribe. Now we have too many people so opting out is a positive step. Liberals like to think they have progressed toward greater tolerance but I think it is mostly because we can afford non contributors and in fact it can be desirable.

    We will see more and more women who chose not to be housekeepers for a dominant male, living their own lives instead. Barring complete collapse of the society, nuclear war, or Chicxulub II, it will continue to evolve in that direction.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    With-Each-Other.....


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