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  1. #21
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    Well, I hope holiday and vacation policy was made clear in advance(when hired). That's only fair. Otherwise, you might be on the hook for unemployment. Other than that, most states have quit/fire laws (like here in MASS). Also, unemployment is not "the dole" in the U.S. and never was. That would be welfare(which is hard to get, and isn't lifelong anymore)

    Other than that, I am not sure what the problem is? if either party finds the arrangements unsuitable, then that is the end of it. They go find somewhere else to work, and you go look for another employee. Why the need for recriminations/insults? As long as it is mutually beneficial, it continues, when it isn't, it ends.
    They have to compete for employment, you have to compete for labor.

    N.B. Most production workers don't work on the holidays, whereas retail workers, and emergency services do. Also, something like IT which has to be staffed 24/365.

    You may find it hard to find people who will work on the Holidays, but inducements may have to be offered(double pay).

    Jon P.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Portable Welder View Post
    The one guy has been with me a month and has refused to work 2 other times for Saturday work, the 2nd guy started last week.
    I started both of them at $ 20.00 hr, plus over time.

    Keep in mind, the one guy wont buy a helmet ( Kind of tells me he doesn't plan on staying in this business. )

    The guy that has been working for a month had a grinder kick back on him and the body hit him in the face so he had to have 12 stitches, this required 4 days off... the cut was maybe 3/4" long. ( Me, I would have came back to work immediately )

    So the million dollar question !!!!!, will they get unemployment because I fired them for not showing up.

    https://www.osha.gov/dte/outreach/in...ployee_ppe.pdf The employees don't supply welding helmets, the employer does.

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    If the guys had accrued sufficient holiday entitlement and the holiday year goes jan-Dec, then they were entitled to not come in. If they hadn't accrued sufficient holiday entitlement then they weren't entitled to take time off except for the state/national holidays.

    On the other hand, If they'd only started recently and they'd already made plans for the week and let you know, early on, that that's why they couldn't come in, it's negotiable (make it up later etc.)

    Just my 0/2d worth.

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    When were they hired and when was holiday leave discussed (and how was it discussed)? It's not clear here how clear you were with them from the get-go. Now it sounds like you've conceded but are also planning on firing them?

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    I can see both sides of this- but bottom line is the bottom line and sometimes one by gosh works when there by gosh is work...... I don't see it as the boss being a hardass as the end customer . Work ethic is hard to find,,, and harder to keep alive. I would say its maybe a bit early for a firing but not too early to be keeping your eyes open for someone more equal to your work ethic.

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    Nobody but you and the two guys know what got said during the hiring, but if it was made clear that there would be mandatory OT , then I feel you were justified in firing them, because they agreed ahead of time.
    Otherwise you can’t just assume they will work random OT shifts. They might have daycare issues, a second job, a sick relative, pets etc.... or maybe they just want to fish.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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  11. #27
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    If I interpret this correctly, they are refusing to work Tuesday Wednesday, Thursday and Friday of this week. Is that correct? If it is, this is not about working overtime, it's about working the normal week that the rest of us do, and they don't want to.

    If these guys were so valuable that they made $100K/yr, why were they available for work, and by the way willing to take a $20/hr job? I think they lost their jobs, ran out of UC benefits and are using jobs with the OP as a standby until they can find something more to their liking. And therefore don't care if they get fired or not, according to their actions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Portable Welder View Post
    ...So the million dollar question !!!!!, will they get unemployment because I fired them for not showing up.
    Do you have a handbook with a write up policy? If not, this may get you.

    Also, if you already fired them you are screwed. If not, see below.

    What you need to do is write down everything in as much detail as you can, along with dates and estimated times. Then for every day missed that was unexcused this week, fill out an employee write up. After the 3rd unexcused no show, then shit-can them. This way you have documentation backing up your claims, and all they have is a story. Fortunately I've only had to do this once(It was on someone that walked out one day and came back 6 months later asking for their job back, so I let them. Big mistake.).

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    well it would depend their reasons and how much notice.
    some places actually shut down between Christmas and new years.
    what's the big deal if they want to take the time off if they have
    accumulated the time.

    week end well you know that is kind of sacred time off people do have lives outside of work.
    And keep in mind some people view Saturday as their worship day.
    just get used to the idea that ot on week ends is voluntary.

    they are employees not contractors it's the employers responsibility to
    provide the tools and equipment including the welding helmet, and necessary safety equipment.

    that you lost 2 guys in a short period of time should tell you something,
    if your guys have to regularly work over time you are doing something wrong.

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    Tell them it they were willing to cut out all their unproductive hours each of the other 5 days a week you would be willing to not ask them to work Saturdays.

    Before I retired, when calculating jobs and quoting… every eight hours of employee time was (8 x .75 = 6 hrs)… six hours available for the job. And that was a good employee. It just mostly worked out that way…if I wanted to know how long an employee would take to do it I would multiply by the calculated hours by 1.335. (i.e. 6 hrs x 1.334 was about 8 employee hours)

    If I didn't do this invariably we would get behined.


    Inc Mag claims this:
    The most popular unproductive activities listed were:
    1. Reading news websites--1 hour, 5 minutes
    2. Checking social media--44 minutes
    3. Discussing non-work-related things with co-workers--40 minutes (BS)
    4. Searching for new jobs--26 minutes
    5. Taking smoke breaks--23 minutes
    6. Making calls to partners or friends--18 minutes
    7. Making hot drinks--17 minutes
    8. Texting or instant messaging--14 minutes
    9. Eating snacks--8 minutes
    10. Making food in office--7 minutes

    In our line of work SOME don’t apply BUT…

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  18. #31
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    go ahead fire all employees that dont work overtime or who are not your ideal of perfect employees.
    .
    you might find 99.9% of people are to a nut job boss not good employees and they will just find another job where they are considered very good employees

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  20. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Portable Welder View Post
    I've been in steel fabricating, erecting and conveyors for 29 years, I just lost a good employee of 14 years ( He went to work for himself ),
    my 2nd good guy left for $ 25.00 hr with retirement.

    So in desperation I had to hire 2 new guys that are skilled trade guys from the Auto plants that are used to making a $ 100,000.00 a year...
    They also told me they won't be working through the Christmas holidays, I told them ( You gotta do, what you gotta do. ) They got Saturday, Sunday and Monday off and would have gotten the same off for the new year.

    Am I being a scrooge, as far as I'm concerned, they will get there pay checks on Tuesday after the new year and have the rest of 2018 off as well.

    One would think that a 40 year old man with a family would care more about a $ 50,000.00 a year job with medical benefits.

    How long had the "2nd good guy" been employed with you when he quit? What was his $/hr. at that point?

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  22. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by scadvice View Post

    Before I retired, when calculating jobs and quoting… every eight hours of employee time was (8 x .75 = 6 hrs)… six hours available for the job. And that was a good employee. It just mostly worked out that way…if I wanted to know how long an employee would take to do it I would multiply by the calculated hours by 1.335. (i.e. 6 hrs x 1.334 was about 8 employee hours)

    I think 6 hours of actual productive work is about the max that can be expected in an 8 hour day. I know this is veering off topic, but I've been in "right hand man" positions and tried to explain this to the proprietor/owner/Big Boss and found it befuddling that they were still perplexed that a job quoted at x man hours took more timecard hours.

    This is the first time I noticed someone spelling it out. And it's not just goofing off- assembly line work is one thing but in a non-pure-production shop there's always going to be a short convo hre or there, questions asked, even non work related, fishing around for supplies or just thinking about the steps to complete the job.

    Quoting actual chip time (or spark time) will always come up short.

    Back on topic- maybe go easy on these new hires through the holidays, then have a calm sit-down with them and get on common ground. Maybe rethink your quoting too. Gordon aside, if you're doing good work but frequently need OT/weekends you might want to up your price, lose some work, do less work, and make the same money. Maybe even be able to keep your next good guys.

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  24. #34
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    Another option might be working (4) 10 hour days Monday through Thursday and an 8 hour overtime day on Friday. It saves the weekend for those employees not wanting to work Saturday/Sunday. This is particularly useful for when you regularly need the extra hours of output. Then on those Fridays you don't need them, they now have a three day weekend. I realize some employees say the OT rates mess with their tax witholdings and they are bumped into a higher tax catagory, but hey, more money is more money. I also know that it is cheaper to pay an employee overtime rates than it is to bring in a new hire to cover the extra hours, what with benefits based on number of employees.

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  26. #35
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    Not read all as Europe way not relevant here...sorry.

    One way to avoid unemployment issues is for them to leave on their own.

    In this time of year tge need for workers usually is less so many places do "busy work" such as performing equipment maintenance or other things that usually do not get done due to lack of time.

    In winter these things are done to keep folks employed.

    If they do not want to work then let them have their way...Just do not schedule any work and confirm minimum reporting time requirements and only have them work the minimum amounts the law allows and have them do the things that can do and you prefer not to do...shovel snow with small shovel....

    They will see that you are a good boss who works with their demands and keep it that way.

    Thank them for working light schedule and at some point they will leave on their own...

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk

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  28. #36
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    skilled trade guys from the Auto plants that are used to making a $ 100,000.00 a year...
    likely they were putting plenty of hours for $100K

    $20 is low for skilled guys but Ok for starting with potential to go higher.
    Some would like to hire Mexicans for around $10 and still bid $70 for the work...

    12 stitches, this required 4 days off... the cut was maybe 3/4" long. ( Me, I would have came back to work immediately )
    Me to same day if a half day still on the clock.

    Jobs are up and people will walk for a better job...

  29. #37
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    I worked for myself for years,nights weekends ,public holidays.......often had to work for nothing.Bad payers ,bankruptcys,spec changes without notice.Closed up.Then I got a job as a maintenance man with one of my customers......mate ,it was christmas in july.....I could do anything,the dumb xxxxs working there were retards getting top money...And I did as I pleased....for 10 years....when I quit ,they sold out to developers ,and the plant was demolished.

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  31. #38
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    It's kind of funny to me listening to stories of people refusing to work weekends and in between holidays. I don't have much sympathy. I worked in film manufacturing, and our facility shut down 3 times in the 34 years I worked there. All 3 were unplanned. Which meant that everyone was working harder to get things up and running than normal production entailed.

    We had four production crews that worked two 12 hour day shifts followed by two 12 hour night shifts, followed by 4 days off. The technical staff on salary was on call 24/7/52 except for scheduled vacations. Holidays included. It may be true that "Most production workers don't work on the holidays", but many do.

    This sort of schedule is true in many of the really heavy industries like steel, aluminum, basic chemical manufacturing, petroleum refining, resource extraction, glass making, power generation, paper manufacturing, heavy transportation, and the like.

    And don't forget the non-industrial fields like hospitals, fire protection, police, IT, portions of the military, 911 operations, and many others.
    Last edited by wheels17; 12-26-2017 at 09:07 PM. Reason: Clarity

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  33. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Portable Welder View Post
    I've been in steel fabricating, erecting and conveyors for 29 years, I just lost a good employee of 14 years ( He went to work for himself ),
    my 2nd good guy left for $ 25.00 hr with retirement.

    So in desperation I had to hire 2 new guys that are skilled trade guys from the Auto plants that are used to making a $ 100,000.00 a year...
    They also told me they won't be working through the Christmas holidays, I told them ( You gotta do, what you gotta do. ) They got Saturday, Sunday and Monday off and would have gotten the same off for the new year.

    Am I being a scrooge, as far as I'm concerned, they will get there pay checks on Tuesday after the new year and have the rest of 2018 off as well.

    One would think that a 40 year old man with a family would care more about a $ 50,000.00 a year job with medical benefits.

    In the immortal words of Forrest Gump, "Stupid as stupid does".
    So you hired two guys laid off from auto plants that were used to $100large per year. You expected them at Christmas and New years to be off 6 days without pay and 3 with chump change. You did say that you are in Michigan so likely close enough to auto plants to have a vague idea of how they work. So you SHOULD know that they retool over the Christmas/New year holidays. I'll bet they were recalled and got Christmas off and 10 days of 7 12s and didn't have to buy their safety equipment. They got double time for the Monday after Christmas and New Years Day. Might even be better than that. Are you bitchin' or jealous?
    Hell I passed up 6 of these this year alone. I have never worked an auto assembly line and would not show up expecting that kind of money without being able to deliver. But they are local and they can do the job.
    You think they should pass that up for you?

  34. #40
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    Most likely they would have had the option of working this week.
    Since the week is paid time off they would get a paid day plus 1.5-2.0 times their normal wage so 2.5 or 3 times the normal wage for the day.
    The guys that clear $100K work a lot of hours. Sundays are double time so many do what is called a "sweet sixteen" and make 4 days pay on a long Sunday.
    Benefits such as this are good in the auto plants if you want to work.

    It is very hard for most to transfer from the big places to a smaller place. The work rules are just different.
    Frustrating both for the employee and employer. It rarely works out.
    The resurgence and rehiring by the auto plants has again shifted the ground rules in south-east Michigan, albeit at lower wages than previously.

    You seem to have justifiable cause for firing them, you will have to protest when they file for unemployment but they can still collect off your unemployment account after a waiting period. Given the max check they get ($362) most will find other work.
    If you have had steady employees for a while you will have a surplus sitting in the state's hands and you won't see a difference in the money you pay out.
    If your fund is low the state will raise your rate until your account balance grows to the required minimum.
    They also collect off of you based on how long they were employed by you, then they collect off of their previous employer.
    You did not have them long so you will have very little to pay.
    This will be called out as to the amounts from your accounts and the previous employer accounts on the statement you will receive from the state. Pay attention to the details on this piece of paper and know what your surplus is which will be detailed on your new yearly rate calculation that the state will send you.
    They may get a years unemployment but very little will come from your credit weeks. This alone is a good reason to get rid of not so good workers fast.
    A shop owner should understand this system but it took me a while to grasp so the pot is not going to call the kettle black here.

    You are probably on the hook for nothing and the employees were used to a different world so they saw their side as logical and normal.
    I see no blame for you or them but most certainly understand your frustration.

    Bob

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