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  1. #81
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    This is exactly correct ! - as I said.
    And the guys who do want to work it said the same - and did it last week.
    And I did them when I was young.

    If You, or someone, wants to take it, ..
    it is 2.5x overtime, on top of your total income.

    So for YOU personally, it is an option to take an extra job ...
    offered to the best guys first, with most experience, You. And similar.
    If You do not want it, that is fine.
    No-one is insisting You should take it.

    These typical crash-jobs would be about 100-150$, trending 120$, per hour on 12x hours x 2 days, over the weekend.
    2880 $ pay, all costs paid on top.
    Often double, for top guys.

    YOU after 22 years would probable rate the 240 => 5760 $ per weekend.
    And if You did not want it, endless others would.

    And in very very special cases, where You are the only option, really, 10x the pay and mandatory (nukes, defense, police, it, military, sewage, water, power etc).
    And fair enough, imho.
    At 55k$ / weekend.



    Quote Originally Posted by fastone53w View Post
    well I been at same place for 22 plus years. I consider weekends my time to do what I want.
    I will not be forced to work weekends at any time if I have some thing going on. It is not my problem that they promised some thing to a customer, if they promised it they should come in and run the machine on the weekend.

    I will find a job that does not Steal my free time from me.

    They are talking about going to running 7 days a week, I told them straight out it will be with out me.

  2. #82
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    well now that you point out that you do
    alot of plant shutdown work, and you told them
    what was expected it's a different deal.

    but you probably aren't paying enough to get what you want in
    an employee.
    you want people to give up weekends it's going to cost you

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    Everybody thinks they got a bad boss until they ever find themselves in those shoes.
    Sure can't be easy to run any business with the current generation of " boss is a dictator, he told me to do stuff ".
    And in a way its great because it gives even more opportunity for those few who still want to get somewhere and do more than the bare minimum to get by.

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    Made 100 grand a year and now jumping at a job with half the pay? Didn't you smell their desperation from a kilometer away? Both of them out the door as soon as "i won't work on xxth and xxth day of the month" comes out of their mouth. There is a chance that they will come back hungrier than ever at some point. "Boss, i can't work on XXth because of something health related and I am going to check it out" IMHO is the only way someone is going to get away with not showing up to work, it's understandable and absolutely everyone had to take a day off for a doctor's appointment.
    And it's not about "slavery", employer being superior to the employee or whatever, it's fundamentally about a mutual gain and that's all there is to it - you (the employer) need work to be done and the employees need a paycheck to provide a living and this comes with all the rules that apply for every operation, e.g. showing up on time, getting the job done on time, paying salaries on time. Being straight-forward in such situations helps.
    Being from Europe I am amazed at the work hours and amount of paid leave employers over the pond provide. Here, the employer is obliged to provide at least 20 days of paid leave / year, OT on regular work days is 1.5x and on national holidays or Sundays 2x the normal rate, if working on a 12 hour schedule the employee works 2 days and after that is entitled to at least 36 hours of break and other rules which don't allow the employee to be Barbaric. Not a lot of places provide unlimited overtime given the habit of working overtime only when there are peaks in orders/demand.

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  7. #85
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    Once place I worked at the night shift worked 5 nights 7.00pm until 8.00am. Two 1/2 hr lunch breaks, all paid. Then on Saturday morning some of the guys would work on until 12.00 lunch time. They'd also come in on Sunday morning and work 4 hours on days !

    How the wages clerk worked out all the premium overtime I'll never know. He must have been one very smart guy.

    Then a certain government came into power and within 12 months the place was fighting for it's life. Some guys got made redundant, the night shift either get blown out or came onto days and we were all working 40 hours if we were lucky.

    Most of the old night shift had to sell cars, houses etc, cancel holidays. They obviously thought things last for ever !

    Regards Tyrone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SND View Post
    Everybody thinks they got a bad boss until they ever find themselves in those shoes.
    Sure can't be easy to run any business with the current generation of " boss is a dictator, he told me to do stuff ".
    And in a way its great because it gives even more opportunity for those few who still want to get somewhere and do more than the bare minimum to get by.
    There was a classic episode of the T.V. show M.A.S.H.
    where they had a day that they traded places, Klinger
    was the boss, etc.

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    I suspect a big part of the issue was trying to hire people over the Christmas holiday weekend, Arguable the biggest time/ week to be off. As the employer I would have waited for the new year. As the prospective employee, I probably would have insisted on it. Unless ofcourse urgency dictated otherwise and and the appropriate level of compensation was on the table. It seems as if the op and the new hires are being judged as if it is a typical time frame when in fact it's really not. Just my .02 cents worth.

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    Guess the rules of engagement should be up front..but one can't think of everything.. but you never told me I cant steal tools, break the machine when I want a break, go home any time I wish, not come in with not a call, play with my phone until the boss tells me that cycle was over a half hour ago.
    Guess they should have a class in school called "doing the drill". kids would be required to do something just exactly as told..

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    I'm not taking sides, however the op admitted that the new guys stated up front, "They also told me they won't be working through the Christmas holidays". If that's a deal breaker, why hire them in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    Guess they should have a class in school called "doing the drill". kids would be required to do something just exactly as told..
    It is done.

    Take one of Japan's "bullet trains". Observe whole classes of young schoolkids on the platforms, many of the stops.

    They are being trained as to how and why boarding and debarking passengers must - literally - "have their shit TOGETHER" so as to get on or off in the extremely short times the doors are open at each stop.

    No mercy.

    Get it wrong, you miss your train. Or cannot try again to get off for many miles down the line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    When I'm look at the thread title Employees dictating when they will work. I'm wondering how many employers regard their employees as paid slaves and themselves as kings with divine power?

    Employees should have the same right to dictate terms as an employer. I sure as hell wouldn't work for anyone that thought telling me how to run my life was his right.

    I have been reading all posts till now...I think what Gorden said here resonates with issue at hand.

    Employees are employees, not slaves. As an employee one gets to negotiate the best deal they can for themself. The employer likewise negotiates the best deal for the company.

    If either party is not happy with the negotiated terms they get to renegotiate...


    Seems these guys decided they did not like the terms and renegotiated by playing hardball, dictating terms and not showing up. As an employer they have you over a barrel...you get to decided whether to pull your pants down or tell them to F-off.

    If you do not tell them to f-off your can expect them to play hardball again...my expectation it will happen when you need them.


    I'll flip it around a little...if it were me and they came to me and said, I am used to the week off and made plans with the family is there anyway I can take the week off. Even if I knew they were single orphans with no family I'd most likely agree and figure a way to make it happen or arrange something in the middle....work with me a little, I need to get XYZ out...if I can get that done we are good...staty late next couple days...or a day mid next week..whatever.


    As to not having a welding helmet. Yes, I agree you should provide as that is your part of being owner...but I also find it many who are serious about their career want to have a better helmet, a helmet of their own. Kinda like tools...I provide all measuring tools, but the serious machinists usually want a few of their own. One develops a feel for certain tools...

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    I still don't see much hope of the OP hiring good employees that will stick around any length of time. His last two guys left. One had been there 14 years and was making $2/hr. over a new hire. ($22 vs. $20) The replacement workers get told they can "have" Saturday, Sunday, and Christmas Day off, but unpaid. I'm sure this leaves them expected to work 4-10's the following week, with no holiday pay, or even overtime. The same happens the next week. I worked for a similar shop owner 30 years ago. The only mistake I made was sticking around too long, and wasting part of my life thinking things would get better.

    I know the OP said he let his former #1 man use his boat and cabin (but not #2 man?), but the use of a boat or a free breakfast doesn't help either #1 or #2 pay their bills. Therefore they left for more money, retirement, and probably better working conditions. Sounds like former #2 was making $20/hr., and STARTED somewhere else at $25/hr. If you underpay by 25%, it gets tough to retain good employees and run any sort of business.

    I'm sure the OP is frustrated at having basically frozen wages at his company for the past 14 years at least, and now is finding out that replacement employees that are: 1) Qualified welders, and 2) Want to work welding (probably outside in the winter at times), are probably going to be hard to find, and will cost more than $20/hr., a free breakfast, and the use of the bosses cabin and boat (if you make it to #1 employee status). Jobs will need to be bid higher to adequately compensate quality employees.

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  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowman View Post
    You just bought a new press brake.

    Either of the recent quits ask for a raise before running off? We experienced this when they started seeing the company spending money...they all started to think that there was an excess, even if that wasn't necessarily the case. Nobody understood just how much $$ Ron had been sacking away before the sale, nor just how much the new owner was paying in monthly debt payments.
    A new press brake is a piece of capital equipment the company uses to improve it's productivity and or business prospects. Far different than an owner showing up with personal items that make it look like he is doing very well and not sharing. Even when I was one I never viewed things from the eyes of the worker bee. By the time I got back in machining at the age of 23, I had already taken two tries at self employment and intended on doing it again. I went about my duties in the shop like I owned the place. I tried to learn as much as I could about running the business. I hopped around a lot before venturing out on my own at 35. The perception of how a business is doing from outward appearance can be very misleading. I have known business owners who live way beyond their means and appear wealthy yet have a negative net worth. I have known guys with 8 figure net worths who drove 20 year old economy cars, ate brown bag lunches and shopped at Walmart.

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  20. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Weeks View Post
    I still don't see much hope of the OP hiring good employees that will stick around any length of time. His last two guys left. One had been there 14 years and was making $2/hr. over a new hire. ($22 vs. $20) The replacement workers get told they can "have" Saturday, Sunday, and Christmas Day off, but unpaid. I'm sure this leaves them expected to work 4-10's the following week, with no holiday pay, or even overtime. The same happens the next week. I worked for a similar shop owner 30 years ago. The only mistake I made was sticking around too long, and wasting part of my life thinking things would get better.

    I know the OP said he let his former #1 man use his boat and cabin (but not #2 man?), but the use of a boat or a free breakfast doesn't help either #1 or #2 pay their bills. Therefore they left for more money, retirement, and probably better working conditions. Sounds like former #2 was making $20/hr., and STARTED somewhere else at $25/hr. If you underpay by 25%, it gets tough to retain good employees and run any sort of business.

    I'm sure the OP is frustrated at having basically frozen wages at his company for the past 14 years at least, and now is finding out that replacement employees that are: 1) Qualified welders, and 2) Want to work welding (probably outside in the winter at times), are probably going to be hard to find, and will cost more than $20/hr., a free breakfast, and the use of the bosses cabin and boat (if you make it to #1 employee status). Jobs will need to be bid higher to adequately compensate quality employees.
    Very well put. I dont know if $20 a hour is good in that area or not, but it sounds really low for what they are doing.

  21. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsned250 View Post
    Very well put. I dont know if $20 a hour is good in that area or not, but it sounds really low for what they are doing.
    Yes, I don't know the Detroit area either, but if skilled union welders make $100,000/yr. + benefits, and you offer $40,000/yr. and want welders to work OT weekends to make up for the low pay, I can see where it would be tough to hire and keep new workers. Believe me, I get the whole union vs. non-union, pay and attitude thing, but a good shop owner needs to learn how to work the labor pool in his area to his advantage. Being the lowest paid shop in the area isn't always the best way to deal with it.

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    Although it is important to pay a fair/competitive wage for the area. Fact is, money doesn't fix lazy.

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    The Ops guys may have had plans and a ton of money spent on a holiday vacation or such..so them being up front with that was fair to the Op.

    $20 starting pay is fair for just about anybody.. 25 to 35 is good.. over 35 is very good. plus hours and benefits all count.

    Start at $20 and if the guy is not as he stated then stays at the same rate or walks.. if good for the company then a raise PDQ to be sure he/she stays,

    The $20 guy if he/she cant be profitable can be set to the broom and bathroom duty. I did my share of that.

    Often even a good talented guy/gal is not up to par till he/she gets a feel for the shop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    A new press brake is a piece of capital equipment the company uses to improve it's productivity and or business prospects. Far different than an owner showing up with personal items that make it look like he is doing very well and not sharing. Even when I was one I never viewed things from the eyes of the worker bee. By the time I got back in machining at the age of 23, I had already taken two tries at self employment and intended on doing it again. I went about my duties in the shop like I owned the place. I tried to learn as much as I could about running the business. I hopped around a lot before venturing out on my own at 35. The perception of how a business is doing from outward appearance can be very misleading. I have known business owners who live way beyond their means and appear wealthy yet have a negative net worth. I have known guys with 8 figure net worths who drove 20 year old economy cars, ate brown bag lunches and shopped at Walmart.
    Well no shit...I know that, and Portable sure as hell knows that. I know his business, I know his customers, and money doesn't grow on trees. BUT...when you see the boss spending money, you don't see it as "he just took on the expense of another employee without the output". Most employees see it as, "whoa, Mr Moneybags is driving a new car and I've got a pOS".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Weeks View Post
    Yes, I don't know the Detroit area either, but if skilled union welders make $100,000/yr. + benefits, and you offer $40,000/yr. and want welders to work OT weekends to make up for the low pay, I can see where it would be tough to hire and keep new workers. Believe me, I get the whole union vs. non-union, pay and attitude thing, but a good shop owner needs to learn how to work the labor pool in his area to his advantage. Being the lowest paid shop in the area isn't always the best way to deal with it.
    $20/hr starting salary as a welder is reasonable in this area. $25 was top of the pay scale nearby for someone that could work independently, MIG welding & general fab, without papers. Billable rate was $85 / hr, and for Portable, there's lots of guys with a pickup and a bobcat that call themselves "portable welders" that he does have to compete against. Lots of them don't have an IQ that exceeds their age, but they'll still have an effect on your billable rate.

    As to why #2 was at $22, there's lots of guys that never really rise very high. I recall hearing things about #1, namely that he was a damn good TIG welder. Having an employee grow to start their own company is something I would personally be proud of. But judging an employer by what one starts a new person and what another person was paid is pretty far fetched. The shop up the road that I worked at started people at $12/hr.

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  27. #100
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    Wow, I never thought I would take so much heat for asking a guy to work normal work hrs.
    When they started I let them know..., we do plant shutdowns, so we sometimes have to work weekends or when ever the customer asks us.
    We just started at a concrete plant on friday ( They got the weekend and holiday off )
    Did they get paid, NO, they just started, the newest guy has taken off more days than he has worked.
    The newest guy "skilled trade" guy didn't even know to unthread a ratchet binder before hooking it on a chain.

    The guys I had before made 20 and 22 hr. and received bonuses when we were doing good, I'm just a 3 man shop so I'm not making millions a year.

    As far as providing PPE, I do, the guy had to wear a shop helmet but wanted a auto darkening.

    Here is how I work, YOU show me what you can do for me and I'll show you what I can do for you... Bonuses were sometimes as much as $ 5,000.00 plus vacation...

    Sorry, but I'm not the bad guy some of you are making me out to be.



    This is exactly why I don't ask questions of this nature around here anymore. No matter how hard you try to be a decent employer, if you expose what you're doing , someone will find a way to twist it so that you're the one being unreasonable. I think most around here are either, employees who never owned a shop and had to make ends meet from there own pockets, or employers who are in well established rich shops, and have money to throw around. Guys, try to remember when you first started, and were small. You had to watch every penny, and it's never easy to pay people for not working. It's not that you don't want to, but it's because you can't. Sometimes I think people forget how hard it is when you're small, and there isn't millions coming in every month.

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