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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    Not singling out this ^ poster, but just the general statement/attitude.

    Degree's and cert's won't get you far in a "working shop" (job shop, smaller aero, etc) IMO, but they will certainly help you along the way, depending on accreditation/type of degree, when/if you want to move to a larger place. I worked at a place where degree holders were given FAR SUPERIOR treatment to non-degree, even if it was un-related to the job.
    ya i'm not saying they're worthless, if a guy has them, cool. i just place more importance on the other things i listed.

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    The thing is, I dont care how many years somebody has been doing something- If I hire an employee, I want it done the way I want it done. So if somebody is expert at setting up an operation in a way I think is dangerous, or wont work well with the exact product we are making, it matters diddly squat to me if they have been doing it that way for 30 years.
    I have had this happen before, an older, experienced guy only will do it the old school way- which, for various reasons he doesnt know, wont work. But he wont change.
    Again, depends on the jobs, and the type of shop, but just experience, without the ability to learn, is not always what I want as an employer.

    I like hiring kids, who are fresh, because I know I gotta teach anybody a fair amount of stuff specific to my shop. If they already "know everything", it just makes it harder.

    Certainly, there are plug and play jobs, where anybody can run a simple part on a BP. But more and more, modern stuff requires specific techniques unique to a tool, tooling, alloy, what finish it will get, and what the application is.

    Me, I have actually been hiring trade school kids for 30 years now, and usually do it every year.
    I have also hired guys, over the years, with "experience".
    I seldom can afford the guy who really does know everything- even a welder/fitter like that, in my area, is worth at least fifty bucks an hour, plus probably that much again in benefits. Those guys work for Boeing or very high end shops.
    I hire people and train em, always have.
    to me, the idea that somebody cared enough to spend two years is a big factor.
    then, the 2 years daily experience with them that the instructors have, which I can talk to them about, is usually far more than the boss who answers the phone when I call for a referral has. Unless its a tiny shop, the guys who actually saw this guy (or gal- I hire women trades people as well) dont talk on the phone when you call and ask about a potential employee.

    Works for me.

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  4. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    But where does skewling come into this?

    I'm not sure what apps you would be refering to, but let's just take a keyway for example.

    What is "the right way"?

    A) The skewls way
    B) Bill's way?
    C) George's way?

    Of course it is gunna matter if you are in a BP, a VMC, your part is 24" long, or 24' long, or ....

    Picking schtuff up as you go from mentors should yield way more better results than anything that you are gunna find in text somewhere, or a controlled environment like a skewl.


    ???


    An example that I like to refer to is lash.
    You could address it for a classroom period or three, and the stoodent could understand it, but not think about it 2 months later ....
    Now - give the person a worn out 1/2" mill and a block of steel to put in a BP, and within a few minutes, they will understand completely.

    It's like the hypothermia scene in The Guardian.



    edit:

    Just look at this website. (PM)

    Most of us here have been dooing this for several years.
    Many of us have been dooing this for decades.
    Some of us yet for several decades.

    Yet here we are, still discussing how best to attack different scenarios.






    ---------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    Comatose gave an example of where skewling ... er, schooling ... might open up possibilities not otherwise seen. And even with hands-on techniques it is always just barely possible that a professor actually knows what he or she is talking about. And of course, research universities are in the business of inventing new ways to do things - I would guess that's where CNC got its start. (Don't actually know with respect to that particular invention, but certainly an awful lot of innovation begins in a university research setting.)

    But as I was pointing out above, it cuts both ways - someone with a wealth of experience may not realize what he or she does not know, and likewise someone with excellent formal training may not realize what he or she does not know. The key in either case is to eschew arrogance. The fatal flaw is assuming that we have nothing new to learn, or that someone from a given setting cannot possibly know something useful or have a better way to do things.

    All of the above does not mean that an experienced shop owner should drop all of his or her hard-earned skills and techniques at the drop of a hat when a newbie comes up with a "great idea." Experience has doubtless taught that nearly always such great ideas are really not so great after all. But once in a while, just maybe, the newbie mighta thoughta somethin, or mighta learnt somethin in school, that really IS a great idea. Deciding when to listen, when to try something, when it is worth investing time in something new even though it will disrupt the current stability ... that is likely what separates the good from the great.

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    You're really stuck on this school thing.

    That 9 month program isn't going to teach you much. Just take your money and waste your time. Shops are willing to teach. Especially if you're mechanically apt.

    There's no possible way a votec program can prepare you for much.

    I never went into business planning to own a machine shop. When things started going that direction I didn't know fuckall about CAD/CAM or programming shit. I went down to the local renowned community college CNC program and interviewed the 2 instructors to see what I could take to get me up to speed. Their advice was not to take their program because the pace would be far too slow for me and that I should hire a programmer to teach me the ropes.

    That's what I did and 2 months later I was on my own and cranking out parts. 6 months later I took that programmers other part time job away from him. That shop still pays me to do their programming and setup 10 years later.

    If you are mechanically inclined learning the basics is pretty quick. The human brain is pretty sponge-like and this isn't rocket science. If you just immerse yourself in the environment and ask good questions you will surpass anything you can learn in a classroom about the basics of machining.

    Plus you don't know what you're good at and what you enjoy doing. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses. Get into as many different shops as it takes to find the right fit for you.

    Or rent a space go buy some machines, make stuff and sell it. That's what I did. No experience necessary.

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  7. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    You're really stuck on this school thing.

    That 9 month program isn't going to teach you much. Just take your money and waste your time. Shops are willing to teach. Especially if you're mechanically apt.

    There's no possible way a votec program can prepare you for much.

    I never went into business planning to own a machine shop. When things started going that direction I didn't know fuckall about CAD/CAM or programming shit. I went down to the local renowned community college CNC program and interviewed the 2 instructors to see what I could take to get me up to speed. Their advice was not to take their program because the pace would be far too slow for me and that I should hire a programmer to teach me the ropes.

    That's what I did and 2 months later I was on my own and cranking out parts.6 months later I took that programmers other part time job away from him. That shop still pays me to do their programming and setup 10 years later.

    If you are mechanically inclined learning the basics is pretty quick. The human brain is pretty sponge-like and this isn't rocket science. If you just immerse yourself in the environment and ask good questions you will surpass anything you can learn in a classroom about the basics of machining.

    Plus you don't know what you're good at and what you enjoy doing. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses. Get into as many different shops as it takes to find the right fit for you.

    Or rent a space go buy some machines, make stuff and sell it. That's what I did. No experience necessary.
    I'm not going to dispute whatever you believe/say, but if in 6 months you were better than him (IF I am reading that correctly, if not I apologize ) --

    1) he wasn't very good to begin with
    2) there was something else going on, NOT related to his skill level
    2a) someone can be a great machinist or programmer, but be a PITA to work with and easier to dump them and bite the bullet on workload..

  8. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    The thing is, I dont care how many years somebody has been doing something- If I hire an employee, I want it done the way I want it done. So if somebody is expert at setting up an operation in a way I think is dangerous, or wont work well with the exact product we are making, it matters diddly squat to me if they have been doing it that way for 30 years.
    I have had this happen before, an older, experienced guy only will do it the old school way- which, for various reasons he doesnt know, wont work. But he wont change.
    Again, depends on the jobs, and the type of shop, but just experience, without the ability to learn, is not always what I want as an employer.

    I like hiring kids, who are fresh, because I know I gotta teach anybody a fair amount of stuff specific to my shop. If they already "know everything", it just makes it harder.

    Certainly, there are plug and play jobs, where anybody can run a simple part on a BP. But more and more, modern stuff requires specific techniques unique to a tool, tooling, alloy, what finish it will get, and what the application is.

    Me, I have actually been hiring trade school kids for 30 years now, and usually do it every year.
    I have also hired guys, over the years, with "experience".
    I seldom can afford the guy who really does know everything- even a welder/fitter like that, in my area, is worth at least fifty bucks an hour, plus probably that much again in benefits. Those guys work for Boeing or very high end shops.
    I hire people and train em, always have.
    to me, the idea that somebody cared enough to spend two years is a big factor.
    then, the 2 years daily experience with them that the instructors have, which I can talk to them about, is usually far more than the boss who answers the phone when I call for a referral has. Unless its a tiny shop, the guys who actually saw this guy (or gal- I hire women trades people as well) dont talk on the phone when you call and ask about a potential employee.

    Works for me.
    I am curious what is special in your shop/work that would require "re-training"..??.. Not to sound shitty, but that just sounds funny to me. I have worked a few places/environments in my career, and I don't think I have ever needed "re-training" so to speak.

    You want the job done like this, ok. (might ask some questions if I think I have a better/faster way)
    We don't have xxxxx supplies/tools/machines/etc, ok, what are my options for doing it?

    It's not that hard to adapt IMO. For example when I started current job, I programmed stuff "my way", which quite honestly worked fine, but they were used to another way, so we compromised. I ran my speeds and feeds I knew worked, but ran the ops in the order they wanted/needed, no big deal. Now if they pull an old program, they bitch and moan about what crap it is LoL.

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  10. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    I'm not going to dispute whatever you believe/say, but if in 6 months you were better than him (IF I am reading that correctly, if not I apologize ) --

    1) he wasn't very good to begin with
    2) there was something else going on, NOT related to his skill level
    2a) someone can be a great machinist or programmer, but be a PITA to work with and easier to dump them and bite the bullet on workload..
    He did not have the aptitude to do this kind of work. Nice guy. Knew a lot of stuff, but just kinda sucked at getting shit done. My first question when I was learning to program was "how do I find out my mills max feedrate?" That question had never confronted him before. He'd run everything real slow. Innefficient toolpaths. His reasoning was he didn't want to break anything. I wanted to make money and not stand in front of a machine for a second more than required.

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  12. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    The thing is, I dont care how many years somebody has been doing something- If I hire an employee, I want it done the way I want it done. So if somebody is expert at setting up an operation in a way I think is dangerous, or wont work well with the exact product we are making, it matters diddly squat to me if they have been doing it that way for 30 years.
    I have had this happen before, an older, experienced guy only will do it the old school way- which, for various reasons he doesnt know, wont work. But he wont change.
    Again, depends on the jobs, and the type of shop, but just experience, without the ability to learn, is not always what I want as an employer.

    I like hiring kids, who are fresh, because I know I gotta teach anybody a fair amount of stuff specific to my shop. If they already "know everything", it just makes it harder.

    Certainly, there are plug and play jobs, where anybody can run a simple part on a BP. But more and more, modern stuff requires specific techniques unique to a tool, tooling, alloy, what finish it will get, and what the application is.

    Me, I have actually been hiring trade school kids for 30 years now, and usually do it every year.
    I have also hired guys, over the years, with "experience".
    I seldom can afford the guy who really does know everything- even a welder/fitter like that, in my area, is worth at least fifty bucks an hour, plus probably that much again in benefits. Those guys work for Boeing or very high end shops.
    I hire people and train em, always have.
    to me, the idea that somebody cared enough to spend two years is a big factor.
    then, the 2 years daily experience with them that the instructors have, which I can talk to them about, is usually far more than the boss who answers the phone when I call for a referral has. Unless its a tiny shop, the guys who actually saw this guy (or gal- I hire women trades people as well) dont talk on the phone when you call and ask about a potential employee.

    Works for me.
    There's probably a reason why you only hire inexperienced guys...I'm gonna guess it's your attitude. I've worked for my way or the highway types, a lot of people did lol.

  13. #49
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    The one thing that came to mind when reading Ries's post - and that may be a copy/paste from several other threads over the years, but ....

    ... In this case - he's saying that his apps are a little out of the norm.

    So then - I wouldn't expect a "norm" process to necessarily be applicable anyhow.

    Like my previous example, if Ries's shafts are different than anything that I had worked before, it would seem that I may need to edit my process a bit to accomplish getting that keyway in there.

    I don't think that there is ever a "one process fits all" anywhere.
    We always need to edit the "norm" to fit any oddity.
    Whether it is just slowing down the F/S/DOC's simply b/c it is a shaky set-up, or ... whatever other changes.....

    Being rigid in your process would seem to mean to me that you only know what you know, and are not able to foresee troubles with your set-up v/s this app.


    ---------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    The thing is, I dont care how many years somebody has been doing something- If I hire an employee, I want it done the way I want it done. So if somebody is expert at setting up an operation in a way I think is dangerous, or wont work well with the exact product we are making, it matters diddly squat to me if they have been doing it that way for 30 years.
    I have had this happen before, an older, experienced guy only will do it the old school way- which, for various reasons he doesnt know, wont work. But he wont change.
    Again, depends on the jobs, and the type of shop, but just experience, without the ability to learn, is not always what I want as an employer.

    I like hiring kids, who are fresh, because I know I gotta teach anybody a fair amount of stuff specific to my shop. If they already "know everything", it just makes it harder.

    Certainly, there are plug and play jobs, where anybody can run a simple part on a BP. But more and more, modern stuff requires specific techniques unique to a tool, tooling, alloy, what finish it will get, and what the application is.

    Me, I have actually been hiring trade school kids for 30 years now, and usually do it every year.
    I have also hired guys, over the years, with "experience".
    I seldom can afford the guy who really does know everything- even a welder/fitter like that, in my area, is worth at least fifty bucks an hour, plus probably that much again in benefits. Those guys work for Boeing or very high end shops.
    I hire people and train em, always have.
    to me, the idea that somebody cared enough to spend two years is a big factor.
    then, the 2 years daily experience with them that the instructors have, which I can talk to them about, is usually far more than the boss who answers the phone when I call for a referral has. Unless its a tiny shop, the guys who actually saw this guy (or gal- I hire women trades people as well) dont talk on the phone when you call and ask about a potential employee.

    Works for me.
    this is why they say: hire character, train skill.

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  17. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    I am curious what is special in your shop/work that would require "re-training"..??.. Not to sound shitty, but that just sounds funny to me. I have worked a few places/environments in my career, and I don't think I have ever needed "re-training" so to speak.

    You want the job done like this, ok. (might ask some questions if I think I have a better/faster way)
    We don't have xxxxx supplies/tools/machines/etc, ok, what are my options for doing it?

    It's not that hard to adapt IMO. For example when I started current job, I programmed stuff "my way", which quite honestly worked fine, but they were used to another way, so we compromised. I ran my speeds and feeds I knew worked, but ran the ops in the order they wanted/needed, no big deal. Now if they pull an old program, they bitch and moan about what crap it is LoL.
    i agree with both of you to a point. i have had to 'retrain' guys because they were doing things that were just plain wrong or not efficient at all. some were open to it, some werent. which again comes to my point, if the student is willing to learn and has the right attitude, i'd much rather hire that kind of person over one that's 'experienced' - whoever knows what in. there's not cut/paste way to go about this as everyone is different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    The one thing that came to mind when reading Ries's post - and that may be a copy/paste from several other threads over the years, but ....

    ... In this case - he's saying that his apps are a little out of the norm.

    So then - I wouldn't expect a "norm" process to necessarily be applicable anyhow.

    Like my previous example, if Ries's shafts are different than anything that I had worked before, it would seem that I may need to edit my process a bit to accomplish getting that keyway in there.

    I don't think that there is ever a "one process fits all" anywhere.
    We always need to edit the "norm" to fit any oddity.
    Whether it is just slowing down the F/S/DOC's simply b/c it is a shaky set-up, or ... whatever other changes.....

    Being rigid in your process would seem to mean to me that you only know what you know, and are not able to foresee troubles with your set-up v/s this app.


    ---------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    DING DING DING! winner winner chicken dinner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    The one thing that came to mind when reading Ries's post - and that may be a copy/paste from several other threads over the years, but ....

    ... In this case - he's saying that his apps are a little out of the norm.

    So then - I wouldn't expect a "norm" process to necessarily be applicable anyhow.

    Like my previous example, if Ries's shafts are different than anything that I had worked before, it would seem that I may need to edit my process a bit to accomplish getting that keyway in there.

    I don't think that there is ever a "one process fits all" anywhere.
    We always need to edit the "norm" to fit any oddity.
    Whether it is just slowing down the F/S/DOC's simply b/c it is a shaky set-up, or ... whatever other changes.....

    Being rigid in your process would seem to mean to me that you only know what you know, and are not able to foresee troubles with your set-up v/s this app.


    ---------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    I agree to the point that there are special cases, like if there's a fixture for something and it makes the process more efficient but is slightly complex to use then it's gotta be done a certain way. If it's squaring blocks and I want to start on the long side and you say it must be done on the short side because thats the way you Always do it, that's just being a control freak.

    There are a lot of ways to machine a lot of things, sometimes there's only one way and one sequence.

    Another thing, I may have set up machines for 10 years in a shop, if it's custom stuff, it's basically like starting all over again, just with a better idea of what goes into it this time.

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    Im of the opinion that its incredibly valuable to bring in experienced guys on the basis of them bringing in "what worked" in other shops.

    Listen to them, and if it doesnt work for your shop, so be it.
    If they wont let it go, then you deal with it.
    If it puts extra $ in your wallet, be sure to let him know, and FFS share it.

    Build that culture, and Im damned sure every top guy will be knocking at your door.

    To the OP:
    Ive worked with guys that have been in the trade for 10 years, and dont know shit
    Ive worked with guys that have a diploma from xyz college... and know even less

    Im working with a kid from India with "engineering, blah blah" for a client right now.
    That guy goes home at night, and does tutorials, sample CAM parts, looks up new tooling, watches youtube videos, has purchased software on his own to play with.
    This kid didnt know shit about shit 6 monhs ago. Yesterday I helped him with setting up 4th axis work on a vertical (he was scared).
    Told him, its the same as working in a vise, but its just mounted on a rotary now, and lights just flashed on.
    Awesome kid.

    In my opinion, finish up the courses you are taking, and look for some part time work helping out.
    I think youre either going to find it encouraging, or a massive kick in the nuts.

    As you mention, its a different world, but you might be in for a BIG surprise as to just how cutthroat it is.

    You seem to want it, and I hope you persue going after it. We need more guys that actually want to do it.

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    Education is huge business and more worried about passing you through to get your next semester's tuition.

    Right now go and drop your resume off at 20 shops for entry level positions, even it's just loading castings into a machine. Work while you are in school. It will make 100 times more sense and some shops will work around school. Look for an employer that offers IRS section 127 reimbursement. If you don't work while you are in school you will start right next to a guy with 0 school and 0 experience but $30k less in debt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    Would you fire him other than company policy of no drug use?
    I would fire anyone using drugs in an illegal way. Simple basis:

    If you are a poor decision maker to violate laws of substantial level (which I consider that to include illegal drug use in our State and even at a Federal Level), you will violate the simple rules and procedures of my shop.

    It has nothing to do with if something should be legal or not.

    Also - if being illegal drug free is a term of employment, not my problem you chose not to be.

    Also - in state like Ohio, you can use any non protected class reason to screen and terminate employees so long as it is clearly specified in your employee manual.

    Very good idea to screen out bad decision makers.


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