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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcsipo View Post
    Honestly i can probably count the times when i used actual knowledge i acquired in college, most of the time the only thing I use is the ability to read 300 pages of crap extract the 4 pages that is really needed to do something. And as a hobby, i get grime under my finger, and sawdust in my pocket, because it is immensely satisfying to put a chunk of material in a machine and out comes a thing of beauty. My own creation.

    dee
    ;-D
    As a retired electrical engineer (PE), this was my experience as well when in business. I was lucky in my career that I actually got to create power systems that directly improved the grid and indirectly the lives connected to it.

    I have never judged anyone based on their education, but instead their worth to my team was their real-world knowledge and ability. College prepares folks on how to develop the correct solutions, what they do with that is up to that person.

    Now retired, I get immense joy in running machinery that I have acquired. I have tremendous respect for machinists and their art.

    BTW, when I started my career with an electrical utility, management required their engineers to work in the field for 1 year to gain an appreciation on how things really worked and the impact engineering had on the field. Unfortunately, due to cut backs, this practice stopped in the 80's....caused all sort of problems afterward which cost more money than saved.

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  3. #102
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    Default Escorted a customer out of my shop today.

    Quote Originally Posted by ewlsey View Post
    What happened to Kevin is BS. No doubt about that.

    However, you guys need to check yourselves if you think everyone is wasting their lives going to college. An average college graduate will make almost twice as much in his or her lifetime than those who don't have a college education. Now, I understand that this statistic is somewhat self selecting since those who graduate college would most likely do better without going to school, but it's still relevant.

    Everyone has an anecdote about some Ph.D who is still flipping burgers and it makes them feel great about their "trade". However, going to college is still a wise investment.
    Let's clarify...smart people who learn more in college will generally make a good living. Dumb folks who go to college generally won't. Smart people who don't go to college will generally earn a decent living, dumb people who don't go to college will not. The word of the day is "ambition". I know a guy who drives a tow truck at night...errr...sleeps and gets up when a call comes in at night. Guy hustles during the day, buys and sells cars and parts, does mechanical work, busts ass...owns about 5 rental properties in SoCal, has a big boat, lots of toys, races something with wheels at least twice a week and loves life. I was losing my ambition over the last few years because my job didn't challenge me, even though it paid OK. The boss threw me a bit more money and a boatload of a project...because the 10 college grads that are all paid more than me spent the last 2 years completely fucking it up, and I once again love my job. My uneducated self gets to singlehandly outsmart a team of overplayed scholars....it really doesn't get better than that, unless you count the point when the boss realizes what just happened...that's even better.

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  5. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by metalmaster10 View Post
    I had an instructor in college that told us to have our degree printed on soft paper so we could at least get some use out of it to wipe....

    I don't even have mine hanging on the wall. I worked hard as an adult for that degree, but I'm not necessarily proud of everyone that is a college grad. LOTS of persnickety individuals who are above those of us who "work with our hands"
    My degrees are buried at the bottom of my sock drawer....

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  7. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpotter View Post
    I could have told her I have a degree but mine is in fine arts, I was a painting major. I wear overalls and probably dont look much like the owner of anything. I dont really care I am not going to impress anyone even if I was trying. I used to work as a goldsmith and I helped this guy who came in the store. He had a hard hat on and some worn out levis and a dirty shirt. I learned to always show everyone the best we have to offer dont insult anyone by showing crap. I started showing him some expensive rings and within a few minutes he said he wanted to buy the one that was 40 grand. I went and got the owner of the store and he comes out and recognizes the guy and they finish the sale. I ask the owner who that was and he tells me he is the owner of the largest concrete contractor in the state and he just finished pouring the new court house foundations. The guy looked like he didnt have 20 bucks but I try not to judge anyone by the way they look or dress.
    I've had a lot of customers like that. Always makes me feel warm on the inside. I've judged them on their ability to write a check. The customers who don't know how to write a check set off an alarm for me. If they can fly through writing a check for over a thousand dollars, I don't worry about it. This litmus has been strangely accurate.

  8. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewlsey View Post
    What happened to Kevin is BS. No doubt about that.

    However, you guys need to check yourselves if you think everyone is wasting their lives going to college. An average college graduate will make almost twice as much in his or her lifetime than those who don't have an <snip> education. Now, I understand that this statistic is somewhat self selecting since those who graduate college would most likely do better without going to school, but it's still relevant.

    Everyone has an anecdote about some Ph.D who is still flipping burgers and it makes them feel great about their "trade". However, going to college is still a wise investment.
    Fixed that for you...

  9. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by zp-northlander View Post
    I graduated highschool in 2013. I went to a small school (only 40 kids on my class). I was the only one to not go to college. Right out of highschool I landed a job for 12 bucks an hour doing die repair (I had previous die experience) shortly later I was given a raise to $18 and made well over $65000 last year. Now not even three years put of highschool I recieved a phone call about my current job. I am a shift leader in a tool room making 25+ an hour doing a job I love. Had to move jobs recently to get the money I deserved but the new place is great, family oriented, if you have a problem you can walk right up to the owner and talk about it. (Rare for a place with 400+ employees) its great and I could probably retire from here.

    Meanwhile all my friends from highschool cant even keep an internship for more than a few weeks because they dont know what its like to have to get up and go to work in the morning.

    A house, a nice car, lifted diesel, boat, and a motorcycle all paid for at 21 years old. Im doing okay for just a guy working with his back instead of his mind.

    Zach
    I don't want to rain on your parade, but you know you kind of got lucky, right? Not meaning to diminish your achievements, or saying you aren't deserving, or didn't work hard for what you have by any means. To somewhat paraphrase what mr Jon Weldon once said - half of making money in this trade is just dumb luck. Hell myself I ran a shop for years and was able to run every machine in there, plus actually ran multiple machines on a daily basis and still only made $21.hour at that job. I know I got lucky in where I am at now. Probably 90% of the jobs in this state (heck nationwide even...) would only pay maybe 2/3 of what I make now. That would probably be working 45+ a week, where I am salary now working 40 most of the time!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    I don't want to rain on your parade, but you know you kind of got lucky, right? Not meaning to diminish your achievements, or saying you aren't deserving, or didn't work hard for what you have by any means. To somewhat paraphrase what mr Jon Weldon once said - half of making money in this trade is just dumb luck. Hell myself I ran a shop for years and was able to run every machine in there, plus actually ran multiple machines on a daily basis and still only made $21.hour at that job. I know I got lucky in where I am at now. Probably 90% of the jobs in this state (heck nationwide even...) would only pay maybe 2/3 of what I make now. That would probably be working 45+ a week, where I am salary now working 40 most of the time!
    I do fully understand how lucky I am, and I am thankful for it everyday. I got into the trade full time at the right time and growing up around the trade I advanced quickly.

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    Been there done that and had a lot worse thrown at me.

    I grew up in a village where if you worked with your hands and got dirty for a living - you were looked down on.

    By the time I was a 3rd year apprentice, I had more in my pocket from OT and jobs on the side, than those with white collar jobs earnt in a full 40hr week.

    An aside - @17, I was told - in no uncertain terms, by a mates mother to keep my grubby paws off her daughter, 6 years later, when Sami had his own business, a new van and a house half paid for,........ her younger sister and I were ''drinking buddies'' while her brother -my mate was a no hoper in the career stakes.

    I wonder why her mother moved heaven and earth trying to marry us off?

    Oh boy, did we had some fun over that

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  13. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewlsey View Post
    I hope no one is claiming that looking like a disheveled hobo is some kind of badge of honor. There is no reason a person should not take at least a little pride in their appearance. You don't need to wear a suit and tie to the shop, but a business owner who deals with the public should not be running the shop in cut off jean shorts and a sleeveless Vanhalen T-shirt.
    Amazing a person thinks they can dictate how others "should" dress. Get a life.

    I think everyone should mind their business and worry about themselves, but obviously that's a tall order.

    I know a couple "hobos" with more money then most the guys on this board. Dress means nothing.

    One of my grandfathers was this way. If you saw him in the coffee shop down the road from his businesses you would never know he owned the property you were standing on.....And basically all the property down that street as far as you could see. This is in Stamford CT, were property is completely ridiculous. What this one man in dickies and a sweatshirt built from absolute poverty is amazing. His dress stayed the same until the day he died, and never hindered business.

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  15. #110
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    College is a tool, in the right hands it can be a powerful tool.

    In my opinion, having another good tool in your bag is a good thing to have.

    Whether a person decided to use that tool to its potential or just hang it on the wall to show it off is up to them.



    Posted by Ibhsbz-
    "because the 10 college grads that are all paid more than me spent the last 2 years completely fucking it up, and I once again love my job. My uneducated self gets to singlehandly outsmart a team of overplayed scholars....it really doesn't get better than that, unless you count the point when the boss realizes what just happened...that's even better."

    Had you had that college "Degree", your boss would have had you on that team initially. You "would" have been making a college grad wage and not had to wait two years to prove you had the skill set and knowledge "they" should have had.
    That Degree would have been your "tool" to get to the head of the line.

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  17. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIM View Post
    College is a tool, in the right hands it can be a powerful tool.

    In my opinion, having another good tool in your bag is a good thing to have.

    Whether a person decided to use that tool to its potential or just hang it on the wall to show it off is up to them.



    Posted by Ibhsbz-
    "because the 10 college grads that are all paid more than me spent the last 2 years completely fucking it up, and I once again love my job. My uneducated self gets to singlehandly outsmart a team of overplayed scholars....it really doesn't get better than that, unless you count the point when the boss realizes what just happened...that's even better."

    Had you had that college "Degree", your boss would have had you on that team initially. You "would" have been making a college grad wage and not had to wait two years to prove you had the skill set and knowledge "they" should have had.
    That Degree would have been your "tool" to get to the head of the line.

    Actually - he prolly would have had to share the glory with 9 slackers....


    .. and besides, the outcome wasn't deemed as daffycult until they all failed at it.
    (Read - skill set not appreciated (let alone known) until previous failures.)


    ------------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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  19. #112
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    Come on guys .. mostly the graduates are disciplined, capable, and somewhat smart.

    Some people without degrees are as well.
    Most are not.

    I used to hire "seemingly smart" people.
    I was wrong.

    I later got to hire graduates (engineers).
    They were much better in 9/10 ways.

    Its much cheaper to hire non-graduates.
    Most are an error - problem.
    Its a hard equation, mostly solved by money.

    The biggest error, in my, quite extensive, experience, conceptually is "we cannot afford that".
    The right way is "I will pay you double. I need you to produce/do xxx. Can/will you do this ?"

    Pay very well.
    Demand results.
    Many will respond.

    Very well paid - I mean about 10k /month.
    People want to work. They want respect. They want a very high salary (or bennies).
    Out of the 19 I hired, 18 performed exceptionally well.

    A small biz cant do that, starting out.
    But, making a path/roadmap to that, may create outstanding results.

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  21. #113
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    Yes, and no..
    Clean and ordered is enough.

    I understand your point. Agree somewhat.

    A maker/manufacturer does not sell to the public.
    Besides as long as your P/E is good, well ...

    We are making money, not widgets.

    Quote Originally Posted by ewlsey View Post
    a business owner who deals with the public should not be running the shop in cut off jean shorts and a sleeveless Vanhalen T-shirt.

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  23. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferretlegger View Post
    I was fortunate enough to be able to pursue advanced degrees in both Physics and Instrumentation Design, and worked in research for my entire career. During that time I met and worked with a wide variety of brilliant (and some not so brilliant) people in a wide variety of disciplines. The poster above who mentioned advancing the state of the art is correct. There is a great thrill to discovering something new, or to designing a tool which accomplishes a previously impossible task. I have seen a great deal of misunderstanding about the difficulty, required skills, and value add of both PhDs and machinists, from both sides of the fence. In truth, we all need and depend on others to do jobs of which we are incapable. I was very lucky to be a "hands-on" sort of researcher. The physics department of my university had a mandatory machine shop course, taught by the machinists in the Physics shop which I took as a freshman. For reasons I will never understand, but for which I am eternally grateful, the machinists in the shop took a liking to me and spent untold hours showing me how professionals build complex devices. I started running machine tools as a freshman, and continued throughout my graduate student years. I was hired into IBM Research, which also had a fabulous research machine shop. I was able to gain the trust of the machinists there, allowed to operate machine tools to build bits and pieces for my work, and eventually got to the point where they would laugh at some of my designs and invite me to coffee and donuts while they helped me rework them to be both practical, and efficient to machine. I can truthfully say that the contributions made by the machine shop were critically important to the success of both my own and many others research activities. On occasion, I was able to help them with weird problems they were struggling with which touched upon my own areas of expertise. The relationship of the machine shop to the researchers was symbiotic. We both depended on each other to satisfy our needs, and by and large, both camps held the other in high regard. There WERE, however, the occasional PhD who was ignorant of the demanding and difficult job the machinists did. Mostly these people didn't really do very well in the long run. Nothing like having the shop build you exactly what you drew rather than what (they undoubtedly knew) you wanted!! Hahahahaha!!!

    Any way, I have always felt that the lack of respect for ANYONE who has devoted their lives to building high level skills and using them to do hard things was very sad. I KNOW from practical experience, how hard it is to work on a machine tool for hour after hour, trying to not make a mistake as the complex part nears it's final operations, while your back hurts, and a hot chip flies into your shirt. I also know from personal experience, how frightening it is to commit to the design of a multimillion dollar tool, with no one to pull your irons out of the fire if you have chosen a bad design point, or how REALLY tired you can get after 14 hours in the lab, staring at a scope, tweaking balky lasers, and thinking as hard as you can the entire time. My conclusion is that really, all work is pretty much the same. If you are really good at what you do, you will go home tired, spend lots of your "off time" learning new things, start over on something just because it doesn't meet your standards, worry obsessively about doing thing as well as can be done, accomplish amazing feats which no one else will ever understand or even care about, but YOU DO. Regardless of whether you get dirty hands and chips in your shorts, or wear a lab coat (only chemists wear lab coats, and hardly even they do...), or go to work in a suit, if you really CARE about doing a good job and work as hard as you can to get the job done to the best of your abilities you have MY respect anyway.

    I am retired now. When I was staring at the prospect of life without a real machine shop, I put the most complete professional shop I could in my garage. WHAT I could NOT put in the garage was my friends from the machine shop on whom I depended for their sage advice, their enormous, deep knowledge of machining technique, tools, and materials, their friendship, and even their pithy criticism of my design efforts. I SALUTE KPOTTER FOR HIS WISDOM AND RESTRAINT! I would have been livid at the disrespect and ignorance that lady demonstrated.

    We all have our roles to play. Billy Bob and Bubba show up in Physics labs, machine shops, management, and just about everywhere else. Personally, I try to ignore them and look for the experts and masters. Those are the people I respect, regardless of the color of the collar or the dirt (or lack of it) on their hands. They also ALWAYS have interesting things to talk about!!!
    Well put. May I quote you on another forum?

  24. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-Micron View Post
    Well put. May I quote you on another forum??? Ferret wrote "I SALUTE KPOTTER FOR HIS WISDOM AND RESTRAINT! I would have been livid at the disrespect and ignorance that lady demonstrated"

    What "wisdom" and what "restraint" ? Best I can tell he made zero effort to educate them to an alternative viewpoint and in short order threw them out. Was it "restrained" that he didn't pop her in the head with a 2 x 4 ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milacron View Post

    What "wisdom" and what "restraint" ? Best I can tell he made zero effort to educate them to an alternative viewpoint and in short order threw them out. Was it "restrained" that he didn't pop her in the head with a 2 x 4 ?
    You can't teach a dog to play the piano.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-Micron View Post
    You can't teach a dog to play the piano.
    True. Her son's probably were not dogs.

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    Obviously a sad comment on the attitude of people in the United States and the UK that machining is "blue collar" work. In Switzerland and Germany they have completely different attitudes and there are large museums of machining and mechanics in major cities like Vienna. Try to find a museum of machining in the United States.

    In the United States most politicians are trained as lawyers. In Germany, Switzerland and Italy it is common to find politicians who are engineers.

    I think it is a very bad omen for the United States. Americans just assume they will remain the #1 country forever which is a huge mistake. Very bad things are on the horizon and a big reason for it is the contemptuous attitude Americans have for "working with their hands".

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    Quote Originally Posted by jscpm View Post
    Obviously a sad comment on the attitude of people in the United States and the UK that machining is "blue collar" work. In Switzerland and Germany they have completely different attitudes and there are large museums of machining and mechanics in major cities like Vienna. Try to find a museum of machining in the United States.

    In the United States most politicians are trained as lawyers. In Germany, Switzerland and Italy it is common to find politicians who are engineers.

    I think it is a very bad omen for the United States. Americans just assume they will remain the #1 country forever which is a huge mistake. Very bad things are on the horizon and a big reason for it is the contemptuous attitude Americans have for "working with their hands".
    This has been improving here for years, via the "Maker" movement interest in robotics and other forms of "cool" automation. Technical manufacturing classes probably are still being done away with, but new ones are being created at the same time. We have a huge one here in SC (Florence area) full of Emco CNC machines (yes...Emco, not Haas !)

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    Quote Originally Posted by kpotter View Post
    I could have told her I have a degree but mine is in fine arts, I was a painting major. I wear overalls and probably dont look much like the owner of anything. I dont really care I am not going to impress anyone even if I was trying. I used to work as a goldsmith and I helped this guy who came in the store. He had a hard hat on and some worn out levis and a dirty shirt. I learned to always show everyone the best we have to offer dont insult anyone by showing crap. I started showing him some expensive rings and within a few minutes he said he wanted to buy the one that was 40 grand. I went and got the owner of the store and he comes out and recognizes the guy and they finish the sale. I ask the owner who that was and he tells me he is the owner of the largest concrete contractor in the state and he just finished pouring the new court house foundations. The guy looked like he didnt have 20 bucks but I try not to judge anyone by the way they look or dress.
    i deal with the public and there is no shortage of nitwits of any age. i also have/had many very wealthy customers that dress like he's saying
    none of those wealthy hobos were nitwits tho'

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