Fired for moonlighting

southernmenace · Feb 14, 2009

I got shitcanned yesterday, just like BobW said I would in a thread I started several months ago.

I was the shop foreman for a small job shop. I was being taken advantage of for three years, with the promise of company ownership in the near future. So I decided to take my future into my own hands. I bought a VMC, a small lathe, and some other odds and ends, and have been making some chips on the weekends, and in the evening time.

Being the honest guy I am, against the advice of BobW, I let my boss know what was going on Monday morning. I told him that I would never target any of his customers, and that my goal was to start my own product line, but I would take in some jobshop work to make some $, and of course, I would continue to work my ass off for him everyday, as I always have. He said that if I wanted to make my own products, that was fine, but if I were to do any jobshop type work, he would have a big problem with it. Then he said either give up my own shop, or get out. He has more $ than god, more work than he can handle, and he's worried about me earning a little gas $. Fuck im. I packed my shit and left.

I know that it is going to be a long, hard road, but I couldn't stand by and watch this ignorant bastard piss away all the hard work we gave him, day in, day out.

The point of this thread...

Listen to BobW! He knows his shit, and tells it like it is.

P.S. Send all extra 3 axis milling work to [email protected] !!!!!

BLMac · Feb 14, 2009

I started out kinda the same way, took a 20k/ year pay cut. That didn't sit too well so after a few weeks of that I told my boss to lay me off. I sold my living room furniture and drove to Toledo, about 1000 miles from me and came back with an M Bridgeport for 700.00. I called a buyer I knew at Polaris (the snowmobile guys) and said I was ready to make parts for them. Not sure why, but he danced with me for about 5 years, and kept me in rent money and Big Macs and even helped me get in with some of their other vendors. I owe that guy more than I can ever repay. I got lucky. You'll be ok as long as you work for the right reasons, not to spite someone. The worst thing you can do is use 'pissed off' as the reason for doing what you did, do it because it's what is right in your gut, you'll sleep better. Good luck, man.

AlexBanich · Feb 14, 2009

BLMac said:
The worst thing you can do is use 'pissed off' as the reason for doing what you did, do it because it's what is right in your gut, you'll sleep better. Good luck, man.

I don't know vengeance and because of being pissed off usually lets me sleep just as good as because it was the right thing to do....

IdahoJim · Feb 14, 2009

BLMac said:
You'll be ok as long as you work for the right reasons, not to spite someone. The worst thing you can do is use 'pissed off' as the reason for doing what you did, do it because it's what is right in your gut, you'll sleep better. Good luck, man.

A little anger can be a great motivator. I went through exactly the same thing in the construction business 34 years ago. The first 3 years, it was the anger that kept me hanging in there. Channel it, direct it, and use it.
Jim

PhillipM · Feb 14, 2009

Hey, at least now you can quote for all his customers... :willy_nilly:

shanghyd · Feb 14, 2009

PhillipM said:
Hey, at least now you can quote for all his customers...

haha and lol at that.
:cheers:

Jim Shaper · Feb 14, 2009

Yeah, start into his bread and butter - sounds like a perfect ending.

Offer them something like 10% off for the first 3 months and see how much you can steer away.

fpworks · Feb 15, 2009

Watch out here...there is common laws and case laws that can be used to protect: 1) you from soliciting his customers, 2) you from soliciting his employees, and 3) his intellectual knowledge...even if you never signed anything.

I don't know the specifics, but I just went through this with our attorney. Just thought you should know...he can indeed go after you if you use your knowlege of his customers, employees, or intellectual knowledge against him.

JCSparks · Feb 15, 2009

I thought my old boss was going to fire me when I was still working there and doing some reaming on the side, the reaming was with his teenage daughter!! JC

JimGlass · Feb 15, 2009

I started my side business and know one at work knew anything about it for the first year or two. I figured boss's and co-workers would not be happy about hearing about my side venture so why tell them. My own time was my own time and my own business.

People start moonlighting for a reason and more money is not always the primary motivation. I started my shop after the company I worked for downsized and the entire company culture changed. They began to manage with fear and intimidation tactics. Most living creatures have some type of defense system when their well being is threatened. My defense was to start my own shop which was not a life long goal but was born out of necessity. I finally fessed up when I was 56 years old and announced I was going to retire (with benefits) in three weeks and run my own shop.

I realize having a business and employees is a struggle. I also realize that a "Job" is the most wonderful gift someone can give to another. However, the wrong or improper management technique can send employees searching for alternative means of employment.

I have avoided any contact with competitors of my former employer. My former employer is now 25% of my shop business.

Jim

rosie · Feb 15, 2009

Best of luck to you. I was shit canned for somewhat simular circumstances, on a Friday. Made a couple phone calls on Saturday, had a meeting Monday on a job I knew of. I got it. It's been a long road so far, and I've got a way to go.

Good luck
Rosie

AlexBanich · Feb 15, 2009

fpworks said:
Watch out here...there is common laws and case laws that can be used to protect: 1) you from soliciting his customers, 2) you from soliciting his employees, and 3) his intellectual knowledge...even if you never signed anything.

I don't know the specifics, but I just went through this with our attorney. Just thought you should know...he can indeed go after you if you use your knowlege of his customers, employees, or intellectual knowledge against him.

I'm by far no specialist when it comes to law but I believe thats mostly defamation and duty of loyalty and good faith. More of a you can't use your position of employment with former employer as means to make profit for a competitor......but something is saying that is an only while you're employed under that employer law..... Something to read up on though for sure.

Kallam · Feb 15, 2009

Yep now you're on your own , your're mad scared not sure whats going to happen .That how a lot of us started. But in a few months you will say to youreself I should have gone out on my own years ago . I worked for a boss like yours made around $500 a week with lots of overtime ,now I make more than that in a day .
I have a little home shop work by myself work when I want . Jobs go smothe because I can control them from start to finish.
You did the right thing.

Jim Shaper · Feb 15, 2009

Care to post some cases where someone was wrongfully dismissed and then successfully sued for pursuing their trade?

The lawyers and judges I've met and spoken with say non-compete clauses are often impossible to enforce (or simply aren't because no compensation is given for restricting someones right to work).

I'm all ears to anything that would indicate the contrary - I've just never seen it.

If the accounts are businesses listed in the phone book, you'd have one hell of a time trying to prove any wrong doing here. Now if he contacted them with print numbers that weren't offered to him (that would be considered intellectual property) and offered bids on those parts, then you'd have an issue and a pretty decent case against him.

fpworks · Feb 15, 2009

Jim Shaper said:
Care to post some cases where someone was wrongfully dismissed and then successfully sued for pursuing their trade?

The lawyers and judges I've met and spoken with say non-compete clauses are often impossible to enforce (or simply aren't because no compensation is given for restricting someones right to work).

I'm all ears to anything that would indicate the contrary - I've just never seen it.

If the accounts are businesses listed in the phone book, you'd have one hell of a time trying to prove any wrong doing here. Now if he contacted them with print numbers that weren't offered to him (that would be considered intellectual property) and offered bids on those parts, then you'd have an issue and a pretty decent case against him.

I don't know the specifics...just covered it with our attorney because we were writing employee contracts and talking about getting current employees "on board."

You're exactly right about the non-compete stuff...can't touch it. (with the exception of one state if I remember correctly, and it isn't the one I live in)

"Wrongfully dismissed" doesn't matter in his case unless he has an employee contract specifically says he can work for himself as a potential competitor after hours, etc. (but probably not!) All states but one are "right to work," so one can be fired for any reason or no reason. (with the exception of discrimination over race, religion, gender, etc.)

I think where the laws are applicable would be if he solicited his former company's customer(s) and tried to take a particular part away...citing a particular part and applying any information about the process that was learned by his former company. I can't see how any contact he makes doesn't go down that road unless we're talking a few months down the road. But I agree-difficult to prove or disprove...but it is likely that he doesn't have the financials to defend if he's just starting out. Best bet for him is to keep his distance for a little while.

dkmc · Feb 15, 2009

I thought my old boss was going to fire me when I was still working there and doing some reaming on the side

Oh hell sparks.....any machinist knows thats HONING not REAMING....
:rolleyes5:

Yep now you're on your own , your're mad scared not sure whats going to happen .That how a lot of us started.

Yea...and back before the internet, and any damn forums like this where you can post yer troubles and get all kinds of advice and encouragement and guidance....how lucky you are in this day and age.
I had to walk to school too....uphill both ways...

Jim Shaper · Feb 15, 2009

FP, I'm kinda playing devils advocate, because I see where you're coming from and agree to an extent with what you said.

Right to work or not, I think the employer would find themselves on the cutting block at trial if they were to pursue the "unfair competition" in this particular situation. It's certainly a conflict of interest if the employee is bidding on work that's coming to the employers shop, and that would be grounds for dismissal, but to fire him for having something on the side would not be favorable in the courts as I'm aware they tend to lean in these cases.

Like I said, I think this is a case where the guy has nothing to fear about becoming a job shop if that's what he thinks he needs to do to put food on the table. That's my take on how the courts would look upon this situation. I doubt his business will grow fast enough to affect the previous employers books to the point where he could even remotely show any damages - without damages, there's no case.

Sean Myers · Feb 15, 2009

dkmc said:
Oh hell sparks.....any machinist knows thats HONING not REAMING....

I always thought that was DRILLING or BORING not HONING.

Sean

fpworks · Feb 15, 2009

Jim-I certainly see where you're coming from. Of course, his former employer is best off by firing him without reason. Downstream is where it gets interesting.

1. Unemployment and rates. (firing for reason or without reason can affect whether he can claim unemployment and if his employer gets a rate increase)
2. His former employer can't tell him "you can't have another job" for the potential that he finds financial hardship in the future because his employer said he can't find supplemental income now...then his employer can be found liable for the hardship. However, an employer CAN say "this job is your primary and you can't have another job that interferes with your primary job's performance."

BTW, once upon a time, my job was threatened because I was starting a machine shop out of my garage. And to be honest, as a business owner I would be quite disturbed if one of my employees had a side job in a similar line of work...for a lot of reasons. True, keep it quiet!

John in CA · Feb 15, 2009

fpworks said:
Jim-I certainly see where you're coming from. Of course, his former employer is best off by firing him without reason. Downstream is where it gets interesting.

1. Unemployment and rates. (firing for reason or without reason can affect whether he can claim unemployment and if his employer gets a rate increase)
2. His former employer can't tell him "you can't have another job" for the potential that he finds financial hardship in the future because his employer said he can't find supplemental income now...then his employer can be found liable for the hardship. However, an employer CAN say "this job is your primary and you can't have another job that interferes with your primary job's performance."

It doesn't sound to me like he was actually fired, but rather quit due to an ultimatum he was given. If that's the case, he wouldn't be able to collect unemployment, would he?

Fired for moonlighting

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